Thank you for your letter. It was like a breath of fresh air.
I have written to the council twice about the speed bumps plus I have spoken to John Drake. His attitude was we are getting the ramps whether there is a need or not as they have an excess of money and it must be spent. His comments about the 20mph limit were that the police couldn’t be bothered to enforce it because it was not financially viable for them to do so. When asked about restrictive access he once again said that the police were too busy to enforce it sighting Smith Drive and Hallows Avenue as proof of police apathy towards the problem.
He also stated that the petition went round after he sent his first proposal letter. This is untrue. The bloke from the top of Birchdale who came round with the petition came before the council letter did. I might add they are not putting bumps under his bedroom window or the councillor from Southdale.
(This really is too long..I’ll just give key points from here on)
Resident in areas H,I,J are all at a loss as to why they are needed.
Cheshire constabulary was unable to confirm that speeding is an issue on these roads.
The only statistics gathered concerned traffic flow rates and not speed.
I have rarely seen vehicles driving in excess of 30mph on our section of Birchdale.
Property values are estimated to loose between £10K - £15K opposite a hump.
Noise pollution, cars going over bumps, braking and acceleration
Health issue due to skeletal problem.
Re: bumps
Well that's all the comments included from the returned questionnaires both for and against apart from the one that said the dog got the form before they could
I have had several calls from residents who thought the collection was being done this week rather than last. These have not been included in the count and in any case they would not have changed the percentages at all.
One caller in particular asked if I would put this message up. The lady in question was the one whose house was severely damaged by an out of control car.
Understandably she was in favour of humps but stressed that despite this, she is angry about how the council have handled this. She said that the council did not in fact issue a questionnaire and they ought to check out the definition of the word.
That’s it for now. I’m just now waiting to hear back from the council and the local press before deciding where to take this next.
Road Humps
I totally agree with you and have had correspondence with Mr Drake at the Council who like all Politicians goes round the houses and doesn't give a reply!
I am totally in favour of the speed limit and not the humps, I wrote to Mr Drake stating this and asking if they had considered them, before the July deadline, he didn't answer.
When they circulated the lists of for and against I again contacted him and asked him which category I was in ( I didn't say either way) he said I probably hadn't been included!
I'm sorry we weren’t able to collect every form in but you'll appreciate that we are normal working people and had to do this in our "spare" time. We did our best but it looks like we missed quite a few and I have had many calls over the last few days saying just this.
The results we obtained have been posted on the news page here news page and on both WarringtonWorldwide and the Guardian websites. Both publications have contacted the council for their response but as yet there has been no reply.
John Regular Poster
Posts: 174
(5/11/06 3:29 am) Reply
Re: Road Humps
I have recently received a copy of a local magazine which includes a letter from Councillor Mike Biggin where he states that :
"Speed ramps are no longer considered to be of benefit nationally, but in the end it is up to the road users to limit their speed, even if the the restrictions were 20mph there are those that would choose to recklessly ignore them."
Re: bumps
That's true John. I'm sure while in this instance the humps have come about largely from the actions of some local councilors but there are many concilors and proffesional groups that oppose them.
I took a taxi the other day and the driver took all the shortcuts through a residential area; scared the flippin life out of me going over the bumps and chicanes.
I asked about using the residential roads and speed. He said that by law, they have to take passengers by the most direct route and as for the speed, he said that he had to be careful as his job depended on not having points on his licence. He also added that he hadn't broken any laws.
Re: Road Humps
The story about what has been happing has just appeared in the Warrington Guardian. There was no real response from the council.
I've just spoken to John Drake who issued the letter on behalf of the council. He wouldn’t comment on the huge difference between our figures and those of the council until they had seen the returned forms. I explained that the questionnaire took the form of a simple tick box, either for speed humps or for a reduced speed limit and that my counting of the ticks had been verified and so would just be the same as his. He insisted though that unless all the forms were delivered to him they couldn’t be considered so looks like a trip out to Palmyra Square on Monday!
He expressed concerns that tick boxes without a signature might suggest to some that I simply sat at home and made up the figures. I explained that the whole idea was to get an accurate figure of the true feeling of the residents and for that very reason, we deliberately did not ask people to sign anything or to give their addresses so that we could eliminate any fear or feelings of intimidation. This should now be interesting to see which the council deems the most important, procedure or truth?
I also put it to Mr Drake that during our survey, everyone we spoke to complained that they had not received any questionnaires from the council. He said that there was an address given for people to reply to but thought that many may have regarded their letter as a statement of intent rather than an opportunity to take part in a consultative process. While choosing his words with great care, as you would expect, the impression I got was that he wasn’t surprised.
He said that contrary to popular belief, they themselves had no agenda for installing road humps and were only acting on information provided by local councillors. Anyway, I advised him that on behalf of the residents, I would be taking the issue up with the local councillors with a view to overturning their proposal. I also recommended it might be wise to put a hold on any expenditure on this project.
More as I get it.
Bill
John Regular Poster
Posts: 178
(11/11/06 2:33 am) Reply
Re: bumps
Saw an item on speed bumps on Channel 5's 'Fifth Gear' program last week where they said :
Quote:A lot of people hate speed humps. Paramedics reckon that 500 people a year die prematurely in the back of London ambulances, because of humps. And estate agents say they'll lower the value of your house. But according to government surveys speed bumps really do reduce traffic speeds, by 9mph, so we're probably stuck with them.
(There is a link to the 'Fifth Gear' website here : Speed Bumps)
It would be interesting to know if that 9mph speed reduction was the actual speed or simply an average in which case there may be some drivers who increase their speed between the bumps.
The info there is a bit short on detail but I would expect at least that sort of reduction or even more in my case. There’s no disputing the fact that bumps slow everyone down but there is an awful lot of side issues created in the process.
From the info we received, I'm not 100% convinced that were dealing with a genuine speed issue here. So many of the comments have been directed at the amount of traffic using the roads I think many may be looking for a access deterrent.
By the way. the council now has all the info we collected in and I'm also now waiting from a reply from Clr Froggatt who I think did the petition.
All the returned questionnaires are now with the council and I'm meeting with Clr Froggatt this evening. He clearly still believes that the majority of people favour bumps so this should be an interesting meeting.
Ask him why he didn't record the information regarding people against the scheme rather than just those for it.
Or is he going to take the total residents, minus those for it and use the remaining as the figure for those against it!
Also ask him why no one got the original council letter.
I met up with Clr Collin Foggatt recently to discuss how the results of the residents’ questionnaire may affect the plans for road humps in the area. Clr Foggatt said he had spoken with John Drake of the road-planning department and they both now accept that the council letter was not the correct way to establish the true feelings of the local residents. They both agree that a simple yes no tick box similar to that carried out by us was the only fair way to achieve this and that the council would be prepared to carry out the survey again. This offer was however withdrawn two days later when it was said that the time for consultation had now passed.
Clearly this is a case of political correctness being more important than the truth and all those involved should be ashamed of them selves. By choosing to ignore the wishes of the people while accepting an unrepresentative petition from a fellow councillor the council are alienating them selves from the public. Such action can only lead us into a situation where the people will take action. There’s talk already of cars being parked to prevent work being carried out and possible claims for compensation against the council and surely this sort of should be avoided.
Clr Foggatt said that if I wished, I could issue a second questionnaire however he couldn’t say if the council would accept the findings. His suggestion was for me to attend the next meeting of the traffic committee although he couldn’t say if this issue would be debated.
John Regular Poster
Posts: 179
(18/11/06 3:36 am) Reply
Re: bumps
Frankly Bill I'm not really surprised by your latest update. This seems to be yet another occaision (of which there seem to be many, the wheely bins fiasco for example) where the Council forget that they are supposed to be representing the public. I don't know how we managed to get ourselves into this situaton where the Council consider themselves to be our masters instead of the other way around!
What we need is a way of regaining control over the Council (and for that matter the Government too) so that they implement the decisions of a true majority and not simply their own agenda. No decision by the Council should be irreversible particularly if, as in this case, no work has yet been started. And in fact the work should not procede until they've considered any objections and they can prove that they've acted truly democratically.
It should also be possible to hold individual Councillors to account in law if they do anything that is undemocratic.
Edited by: John at: 18/11/06 3:38 am
Re: bumps
All excellent points John and so well put I did a cut and paste onto another forum because I couldn't have put it any better. (Hope you dont mind) I dont know about changing the political system. I think there are some good guys who I take my hat off for their efforts while others seem political jobsworths.
I have had a meeting with the local councilor and a nicer bloke you couldn't wish to meet but when he tells me that most of the people he's spoken to want speed bumps I have to question how this can be possible??? I know for certain that our figures are 100% accurate and four out of five people don't want speed bumps so how the heck does he see so different a picture???
What miffs me off though is having to go through all the bloody hard work of hand delivering and collecting nearly six hundred questionnaires again. If we were trying to split hairs on numbers it might be understandable but an 80/20 split could be verified with a high degree of certainty with just a small random sample.
Irene and myself will be out tomorrow pushing a second questionnaire through all the doors then collecting on Thursday. Just hope the rain keeps off while we do it.
Speed Humps.
I'm in favour of the spped humps AND a 20pmh speed limit.
Cars regularly speed past my house and I fear for the safety of my children and other vulnerable road users.
Why would selfish, careless drivers keep to a 20 limit when they can't be bothered to keep to the 30 one?
Would you rather see someone die than lose money off the price of your house?
Dave
Bill Expert Poster
Posts: 1423
(28/11/06 10:36 pm) Reply
bumps
Dave
“Would you rather see someone die than lose money off the price of your house?”
Unfortunately Dave I have to tell you that I’ve seen that twice. The first time a five-year-old from the house where I was living then a couple of years later an eight-year-old just 30 foot from my gate. So given this, do you seriously think I’d be the kind of uncaring person that would do this just for the sake of doing it? The £10K to £15K house devaluation mentioned on this board was just one persons view and one that I don’t particularly hold with.
Like you, I want to see safer roads for everyone. I agree there are instances where speed humps are the right solution, but they’re not a universal answer to all problems and have some serious down sides to them. As a community, we should be looking for real solutions that meet the need of everyone, and I honestly believe that this can be achieved provided there is a willingness to try. But Dave you have to be realistic in what can be achieved and asking for bumps and a 20mph limit on a road that the police themselves say has no significant safety concerns would be seen as an over reaction and as such would never get approved.
There’s my take on it Dave for what it’s worth. Thanks for adding to the debate.
Any chance you might give Irene and myself a hand Thursday evening to get the results in. My main concern is that if the weather forcast is right by 9pm its going to be bucketing down.
Bill
John Regular Poster
Posts: 180
(1/12/06 12:28 am) Reply
Re: Speed Humps.
Hi Bill, I don't mind you cutting and pasting my reply, (I wish you hadn't copied my name too though as I've only just managed to escape from the Councils thought police ).
I imagine that the Councillor that you spoke to was pleasant and I'm sure that there must be some good ones and it must be difficult for them to decide what the majority really want. Most of them though seem to promote their own and/or their parties agenda and listen to a voiceferous minority rather than take the trouble to find out the real views of the people they are supposed to represent.
An example of this is that a few years ago a friend of mine objected to a particular development and approached some of the local councillors who he regarded as friends and they were very supportive of his objections. The council also held a poll however the result of this was that the 'majority' of residents supported the development. This was hardly surprising as the polling paper sent out by the council promoted the development and many residents (including myself) didn't receive a copy. In the end we went to the meeting where the council were debating the issue but we were'nt allowed to take part in the debate and my friend had to rely on his councillors friends to raise his objections. Unfortunately for him although they said they supported his objections they all voted for the the development without giving him any prior indication that they were going to do so.
I hope that you are successful in getting the true views of the residents and if they are different than the Councils that you can also convince them to vote with the wishes of the majority. However I think that they are just trying to either keep having polls until they get the result that they want or they will just say that 'sorry you're too late and the decisions already been made'.
Perhaps the answer is to have a guy waving a red flag and walking in front of each car .
Edited by: John at: 1/12/06 12:31 am
Re: Speed Humps.
First sorry for the delay in getting these results onto the forum due to pressure of work.
Total questionnaires issued.……….583
Total returned papers………………...285
Total in favour of humps…………….. 48 (17.5%)
Total preferring 20mph ……………...226 (82.5%)
Total spoilt papers……………………... 11
The figures as expected are virtually identical to those collected in our original survey. The council said that providing we can provide signed copies showing that more than 51% are opposed to their plan, then it would not be approved. We now have to trust that the council will act honourably and respect the wishes of the people of this area and not make any more claims that procedure hasn’t been followed.
I take this opportunity of thanking everyone that took part in this democratic process both for and against. To the small vociferous group who made rude comments or was abusive to my wife while delivering them, I can only say that thankfully you are not representative of the good people of this estate. Your anger would be better served if directed at the council whose incorrect procedures caused this mess in the first place.
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