Continued Argument with the sadly no longer participating.
I have decided to make my next responses to the arguments for Gor put forward by Locodarwin under a different thread, as the old one was beginning to be somewhat overlong and had nothing to do with its original title, that being how John Norman had taken much of his inspiration from the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs.
My argument is that the Gor novels do not contain a worthy lifestyle philosophy, and indeed actually have caused people to emulate harmful notions and behaviours.
When I have spoken about the incessant references to the abuse of women and the weak, with such occurrences being portrayed as meritorious in the novels, Locodarwin replied with the following quote.
[[Fortunately most of us are capable of determining for ourselves what is beneficial and meritorious, despite what we read, see on the news, or witness on the street. We are able to discern from a piece of literature, for example, just what fits our idea of sound moral character, and what does not. Those who cannot discern the difference, I suspect, are more likely to disregard a great number of other beneficial things about life, such as love and the responsibilities that come with it.]]
End of Quote
These esoteric declarations are what is usually trotted out by Goreans when they are asked to make clear how it is they have found a worthy lifestyle philosophy from a set of novels that celebrate brutal slavery and suppression.
Here is another quote from Locodarwin:
[[Briefly, I have gleaned a great deal of insight as to the nature of humankind, sociologically, psychologically, and otherwise. The bad examples are just as good as the better examples for the purpose of demonstrating this nature. I have learned to live simply, and honestly. I have been inspired to learn more about the concepts of honor, integrity, and respect - among many other things. Do I uphold them? Maybe not all of the time, but I certainly hold them up as my ideal. I have been inspired to appreciate more about life's natural tendencies. My perspectives on many issues have been broadened.]]
End of Quote
So from novels, with no evidence beyond what the author imagined, Locodarwin, who (by his own definition) is someone respected within the Gorean community has gleaned a great deal of insight into the nature of humankind?
I suggest what he has gained, is a set of fictional episodes, that agree with his own prejudices concerning human kind. However much Goreans may wish certain notions to be true, they are not.
No Gorean has ever produced evidence (that I have seen) that shows otherwise.
It surely must be Hell, not being able to get the attention you so desperately want, from the people you so desperately desire it from…. Now THAT is just plain sad!
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1074
(4/9/03 23:53) Reply
Re: Poor Guy
Yes, yes, I so crave the attention of freaks and societies rejects, I miss the stalkers so much, that's why I come here about once every other week.
Gor is dead and gone there are just a small handfull of Goreans left myself and others like me really are not needed anymore, but I know we'll be around just in case you try to crawl back from under your rock, err homestone.
Now be a good old man and go read your "comix" (sic).
Ah yes as to the basket weaving comment, I do indeed have a small number of rather expensive hand woven wicker and willow baskets.
Created by a man, he also creates great pottery, of which I own a number of his works, I especially love my collection of mugs.
That said you do know that the afforementioned crafts are traditionally male dominated and oriented.
It is only very recently that men have forgone their past heritage, my informed guess would be that it is due to 'men' like yourself that are so latently homosexual and thus viruntly homophobic that attempting anything that you remotely view as (wrongly, but that's nothing new) feminine terrifies you; your inability (most if not all Gorean 'men') to deal with your sexual orientation creates in you a hate towards anything feminine.
Gorean men are simply little homophobic boys that hate the women they so wish to be, a "vagina/womb" envy of you will.
Afterall there are just as many muscle bound, leather clad, semi naked sweat glistening men on the covers of these books as there are women.
The books certainly are not written for or by women so why is there so much homo erotic art depicted in association with Gor?
Why? Simple, my hypothesis is correct.
I bet you draw all sorts of leather clad sweaty men don't you.
Poor Goreans.
I would have to add that judging by the amount of email I get each time I post to his forum it would seem that it attracts quite a lot of attention.
I seem to recall a while back a group of Goreans mentioning that they had evidence of some obscure origin that I did not quite grasp, (and as I was sure it was nonsense I did not bother too much) that would result in this forums closure as soon as it was reported to the appropriate authorities.
Of course it did not happen, and I suppose the Goreans who said it would, think that we have forgotten that they said it.
I agree that there is homo erotica within the Gor novels and indeed there is much evidence that only men who fear their own homosexuality are so rabidly anti gay as most Goreans.
As is the overwhelming evidence that it is only weak men, terrified of women, who would have any desire for women to behave in the ridiculous obsequious way that is the standard spiel from Gorean women online.
It is an amusing irony that most of the women who type this sycophantic stuff, in reality often show little respect to men. Whereas I, a women hated and vilified by the Gorean community have never failed to ensure the comfort and well-being of my men folk. I would make a much better kajira then most Gorean slave girls, and that’s a fact.
Of course Gor also appeals strongly to extremely submissive men, for there is plenty within those chronicles that depicts the sexual slavery of men at the feet of their Mistresses.
Re: Poor Goreans.
In the BDSM community submissive men (whether straight, bi or gay) out number submissive women by great numbers.
So you see, there are more men willing to kneel at a woman's or man's feet than women. And male submissives seem to be more docile than their female counterparts.
That's why after finding out facts and seeing how those around truely live out the lives they feel is "natural" to them.... I could no longer agree with the natural order presented by the Gorean Philosophy.
XSha Tell the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1075
(5/13/03 0:40) Reply
Facts
Since when have facts or reality stopped "goreans", when they cannot fit their ideology into reality they simply make up a reality.
Facts.
I agree Melissa. Much of the time you will see Goreans speak of what they call *Natural Order.*
They believe that the culture described in the Gorean novels is natural, whereas the culture that has evolved in the West is not.
Goreans do not take too kindly to being pressed on what bits of the Gorean culture they find natural and will answer in a vague way.
In the many debates I have had with Goreans over the years, they always avoid discussing the *horrible* aspects of Gorean culture.
They do this by making statements about separating the fiction from the philosophy, without explaining what they mean by this.
They do this by attack. (some say this is the best form of defence.) They will find something, no matter how irrelevant about who they are debating with and try to debate this issue instead.
They use sarcasm. Irrelevant comments that they all join in with. They talk to each other, not addressing the original issues.
They use hostility. Refusing to debate the issues, but nonetheless being so unpleasant and goading it is likely to make who they are debating with respond in kind, so it becomes little more than a slanging match. The insults fly, but the issues are dropped.
They flood an issue. Many post, often addressing each other and not the topic.
They respond at great length, using complex terminology and words, (often incorrectly). It is extremely difficult to glean the points made from such lengthy works, which is of course the intention.
This coupled with the cross posting, and introduction of other aspects results in the original issue being drowned.
They accuse people who raise uncomfortable issues of trolling (Don’t feed the monkeys.)
They refuse to discuss the issue further. Either by refusing to participate in forums that they do not control, i.e. where posts are left unedited and where contrary opinion is allowed to be expressed. In other words, this one.
Or by editing or banning awkward questioners from the forums they control.
They then frequently discuss the issue in the questioners absence, without the bother of having to deal with input that is irksome to deal with.
They then congratulate each other on their perception and wisdom concerning Gorean Philosophy.
With all the above it is easy to understand why it is almost impossible to get to the nub of any issue with these people.
So is the culture that evolved in the Gorean novels natural, whereas our own respective cultures are not?
I am not an anthropologist, so would be interested in any evidence that supports this.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1078
(6/1/03 21:29) Reply
Re: Facts.
As a sidebar to the "Natural Order" of things:
I learned an interesting fact the other day that I am sorry I did not know sooner.
And that fact is; that there were female, yes female, gladiators that fought in the Roman Coliseum, among other arenas, and not all were slaves either, many women volunteered, as did the many male Gladiators, to fight. They were very well payed too, some ten times the yearly average salary.
So much for another gorean theory concerning "natural order".
Re: Facts.
Just a quick note regarding minxie's allusion to Sha's plagiarism. I expected that when it was brought to the attention of the 8 different owners of the works that they would be more reactive than they were. I was wrong in assuming that they would ask the board to be shut down. While a few of them did thank me for pointing it out, most of them did not bother to reply.
As before, anybody interested in seeing the *original* works stolen by Sha, simply drop me an e-mail (Tiberius_Ar@hotmail.com). Many are from some leftist political website, but there are others from on-line Britannica, some from various news agencies, and others from doctoral work posted on the internet.
If anybody is interested in finding them for themselves, simply cut a line or short segment from his longer posts and put it into quotes in the address line of your browser. Then hit "Enter." I had a success rate of about 30% when just taking lines at random that appeared to be plagiarized. By the time I got bored, I had well over a dozen examples.
What is amazing Tiberius, is that XSha Tell is somebody, who has said some things about Gor that you don't like.
But instead of discussing this, you have decided to seek something, in fact, anything to discuss rather than Gor.
And you will go to great lengths to search and discover things that are really not relevant.
Why can't you just stick to the subject? Is Gor a worthy concept? Is it natural? Would it be a good thing if we arranged our culture to be the same as that fictional planet? And if so, how so?
You're right, Sha has said many things over the many years that I have been interacting with him, both relevant to topics Gorean and otherwise. I'm pretty sure you are well aware that I have given well into the hundreds of hours to discussing my views with him-mostly on boards other than this one. I've made my points, and he has made his.
My comment regarding his theft of the many works is simply my way of making sure people are aware of what type of a person he is.
The most recent example? His comments regarding the demise of things Gorean. Surely you don't think that he is unaware of the many Gorean Boards that receive more posts in a single day than his receives in 6 months? He makes an unsubstantiated comment, which surprises noone who has taken any amount of time to follow his convoluted logic, and when I point it out to him he will simply make something up to allegedly refute the fact I state. *shrug*
While you may feel a person's honesty is irrelevant, I, quite simply, disagree.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1080
(6/9/03 1:35 am) Reply
Re: re: Amazement
Boards such as the Gorean forum?
Or the Silk and Steel?
Who's website is now gone also.
The GorComm board.
Sasha's
A good half dozen other boards here on ezboard.
Etc. Etc.
Or shall we all go to WOG and count the dead links there?
I just did a google search entering the word "gor" other than WOG no gorean site shows up on the first three pages that has been updated since 2000.
Some of the links were dead.
There's that word again
Further I know not about AOL but gor is dead on irc.
Yes most unsubstantiated indeed.
As to the so called plagiarism, it is only plagiarism if one claims it as there own.
Hence this is the reason why the board was never shut down, nor was I ever even contacted by any person.
Then there was the other lame (and failed) attempt to get the board shut down due to nude content.
At least Tib is consistent, at failure.
Are you still upset that a man with down's syndrome can outperform you in the job market?
Even with his "diluted gene pool"
-Tiberius
Again, not wishing to embarrass you, yet again, I used this technique, a technique well accepted in sociology to elicit true responses.
The best example, again, of this technique, was when I posted excerpts from Mein Kampf, to which you (tiberius) exclaimed an orgasmic "Yes, Yes, Yes," ... now you got it.
As to the definitions from one encyclopaedia or another, you are simply and desperately grasping at straws.
Shall I post a reference for every word I type?
The simple fact is that once Tiberius found out I was a Jew his true self came out.
In March of 2001 I recieved a number of anti semetic email from Tiberius:
"Oh and by the way...Were I as confused as you, I would have made mention of the fascist ideals of believing in a "'chosen people'" which are fighting tooth and nail to take a small city state by force."
"I'm currently preparing selected quotes from the Torah to
"'prove'" you are a fascist nazi."
etc.
The "man" is simply a neo fascist nazi, like most other goreans.
Then there was this little number that Tiberius posted (and sent to me in email) on his now dead board, yet another of his failures.
I am beginning to see a pattern.
"Gorean philosophy within mainstream society isn't, as I see it, a safe
or sane lifestyle. The precepts contained within it provide too high a
probability of abuse and damage to females (evidenced by the horror
stories all of us have heard)"
Which was reinforced in yet another email he sent me:
"I don't believe Gorean philosophy is safe within mainstream society due to people's tendency to misinterpret the writings based on earthen societal values. ::Shrugs:: I don't practice slavery at work. I don't force my lifestyle on other people who don't believe the same way I do (ie, mainstream society). Obviously we don't communicate effectively since you seem to misunderstand most all of what I write."
I see Tib, gor is neither a "sane" nor "safe" lifestyle.
I understand it now.
Too bad you do not take your very own words to heart.
BTW: Tib pulled his posts concerning this entire matter (then denied them) one can draw their own conclusion as to why, but we have seen this behaviour before from goreans right after they have been shown for what they truly are. Since this time he has done numerous things to discredit me; to stop me; to get this board shut down; he (you) are a failure.
In fact Tibs board died shortly after his exclamations and public endorsement (and subsequent weaslily denial) of Adolf Hitler.
Just another board that I helped kill.
My best guess is that he still has yet to get over that, and it is the primary reason he has tried, and failed, to shut the board down.
100's of hours? Now, now, tib you wouldn't want to be accused of some minor inpropriety.
You sent me email between January and March of 2001.
This board has been up since July, 7, 1999, you have hardly posted here at all, yet chose instead to send anti semetic email among others (over 50 emails back and forth in those few short months, so maybe you did spend hundreds of hours indeed).
The more you failed at discrediting me the more virulent your email became, to the point of being anti semetic.
Did you think that I would not post your anti semetic comments?
Despite and inspite of my attempts to let this board die a peaceful death, and my month (plus) long absences, goreans cannot help themselves, and haunt this board on a daily basis.
In fact, this board probably has been in existence now longer than the "original" gorean site.
Most gorean sites, period.
What more needs to be said?
As to the original topic, I see that the old gorean tactic of making an inane and off topic post is still in use.
Coincedence that Tib came here at this time after so long an absence in this string to try and do just that?
No.
The fact is that goreans refused to debate with Minxie, saying that there was nothing left to be said, then they went behind her back and continued to talk about her and her posts.
Re: No Evidence Yet?
Oh and just so you DO understand... this was NOT an invitation to debate your findings...with ALL the "Hard" data (pun intended) you backed that last post up, with one would be very pressed to debate it ... given your mode of operation.
But I AM wondering..... since as you and "Doc" say, Gor is dead and they have all run home to hide from you... WHY have you not celebrated your victory? You chased them all off... and... Why do you persist in this? Wouldn't you be more apt to move on to the next Monster to kill?
Seeing as YOU and "Doc" are the only ones to be pursuing this... perhaps YOU "need" Gor... more than anyone else.
Just on a general basis (outside the BDSM realm), I often run across men that wish to worship my feet. We're not talking about men that want to just suckle on my toes or men that know me, but men that just glance or meet me and are willing to do serious feet worship. And these men don't even know who or what I am.
I have average men coming up and wanting to get into some serious spanking with me, but it is them that want spanked. Actually the last man, a strickingly handsome, and hulking (but yet a sensitive cancer) I could have my way with. ropes, spanking, domination......total body worship. gah. But I've known him for years. He's just too beautiful and built.
Now I have this very tall, rough spoken cabbie calling me all the time. I keep telling him we are thee same peas in the pod and that I can find him the type of woman he seeks. But he wants me. He wants to change me. He wants to teach me. He wants me to dominant him.
Lordy, I get this all the time, Minx. This is just a small example. I don't even have to be within the lifestyle to find these men. They are everywhere. I'm only 5'1.5" and I don't dress any particular way. I HAVE been accused of seducing with my eyes, but that's just "my" look. But if anything, it's not "that' kinda look.
From living within the BDSM lifestyle to living an everyday life, I just feel there are just more men "seriously" seeking a dominant female partner.
That's just from my experience and I don't look dominant lol.
Melissa
XSha Tell the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1081
(8/10/03 5:29 pm) Reply
Con't
Men Will Pay To Be Dominated.
You do not see many, if any, ads in the personals where women are willing to pay to be dominated.
As to whom needs what dear Dunstan: seeing as you have oft said that you would never return to this forum yet visit it far more than either Minx, Melissa, or myself combined only one conclusion can be extrapolated; you are one of those afforementioned men that need and seek to be dominated and belittled.
As to gor being "dead", most gor sites are down or abandoned, traffic on IRC is nonexistent, the same can be said for Yahoo, I cannot speak for AOL, yet I sincerely doubt there is anything different happening over there.
Edited by: XSha Tell at: 8/10/03 5:33 pm
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1083
(8/11/03 16:28) Reply
Re: Con't
We all have looked at the personal ads.
I'm unsure as to why you would find them funny, I usually read Garfield for that.
Nor do I understand your question.
Why would I want to boost my income, I already have more monry than I know what to do with.
I suppose you were trying to be droll in some type of backhanded gorean way, how very honourable.
Yes there's that infamous so called honour, I'm still waiting for any shred of evidence as to the existence of that lofty concept.
A concept that everyone her has seen is simply a non reality when it comes to goreans.
This is the one true thing that all goreans share in common.
It is a very real pathology that occurs in every single gorean a "me first" attitude that is substituted for the word honour.
For example, when it comes to your word, your "honour" when you keep claiming to never post here again, well you are now the most prolific user of this forum, bar none, and that in my professional opinion you are simply craving the attention that you so much lack in your personal day to day activities.
Most honourable indeed, most gorean. Most pathetic.
It has now been several years since I offered goreans the opportunity to give one, just one, example of how gor is either natural of good, not a single person has managed to do so.
Many have come here, yourself included, and made absolute and complete fools of themselves, most were smart enough to comprehend this fact and they ran away like the cowards that they truly are back under their "homestones" (and right off the WWW in most cases). You on the other hand do not have the good sense that God gave you.
Yet this is to be expected from reading your offal over the year(s).
Please do keep making an utter ass of yourself, I do so enjoy it.
You know I do not think that I have posted here since late February, yet you continued to do so, even in my prolonged and deliberate absence, in fact you must visit this board every day, your name appears at the top very often, that is certainly very strange indeed.
So once again I'll pose the question, what is good and natural about gor?
In fact, the very fact, that gor id indeed dead or dying across the WWW proves that gor is unnatural, and indeed is not embraced in any way shape or form, by any, other than the mentally unfirm.
We're not talking about men that want to just suckle on my toes or men that know me, but men that just glance or meet me and are willing to do serious feet worship. And these men don't even know who or what I am. 
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