Registered User
Posts: 1
(12/29/03 10:07 pm) Reply
You're kidding right?
Well, I don't know exactly where to post this, so this is my best guess, and if it is in the wrong area, I leave it in the hands of the very capable mods/admins here I'm sure. I'm a wiccan, I have been for quite a while now. Getting my hands on every book I can find, but mostly focusing on the deeper aspects, I even own Cunningham's complete guide to witchcraft. For all those that don't know, Mr Cunningham is practically the father of witchcraft, and that book is like the wiccans bible. Now, with that said, I'd like an explanation, please. I would like to know how someone can think they are Christian AND wiccan. I have talked to many that believed that, and they were sorely wrong, mostly because they didn't believe wicca was a 'full religion' which it is. Wiccans worship the goddess, the horned god, the elements, and don't believe in the devil. Christians worship ONE god, Jesus, and believe in the devil.
They can't be mixed. A few basic ideas and priciples can, but I don't see how they can be completely combined, and I would greatly enjoy to see sometone give me a good answer.
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WOW... you say you're focusing on the deeper aspects ... but I'm having trouble believing that... Cunningham wrote several books and tends to be a good resource for beginning wiccans, but "practically the father of witchcraft" ?? I wouldn't go that far. Wicca was created and officially recognized as a religion in 1951 by Gerald Gardener... There are several very good books by former members of his coven... Janet and Stewart Farrar "A Witch's Bible", anything by Doreen Valiente. If you really want to look deeper I suggest studying up on the Golden Dawn, Thelema, Crowley's writings, and the Kabbalah. There lies the ceremonial foundations for Wicca as we know it now.
I'm also really tired of people generalizing what wiccans believe and what christians believe.... not all wiccans believe the same thing, not all christians believe the same thing. Certainly mainstream fundamentalist Christianity (aka Churchianity or Paulianity in many discussions) would not blend... but most people coming to this path find the Goddess hidden even in the bible... especially Wisdom (Sophia) in the book of Proverbs, and Mary, Mary Magdalene, and The Holy Spirit in the New Testament. They find esoteric and occult principles in Jesus's teachings. Fundamentalist Christians would not call us Christian, but we feel we are... and in many cases we feel those fundies are really lacking the true essence of Jesus's teachings...
If you haven't yet read any of the essays on www.christianwicca.com I suggest you do so if you really want to understand. The author of the essays and related book has really done the best job I know of putting into words what others of our path feel.
Blessings,
Phenyx Angel
Phenyx Angel
Priestess of Sophia
Forum Moderator
www.phenyx-creations.com
Re: You're kidding right?
If you think that Scott Cunningham is the father of witchcraft, boy do you have a lot to learn! If I asked you who Z. Budapest, Starhawk, Janet Farrar, or Aleister Crowley are, would you even know? It's hard to take you seriously when you clearly don't know the history of witchcraft.
Siobhan88 Registered User
Posts: 2
(1/24/04 11:43 pm) Reply
Re: You're kidding right?
As much as you would "greatly enjoy to see someone give you a good answer" to your post (of which Phenyx Angel Luna did a splendid job, I believe), I seem to have missed the part where this board is in existence for the amusement of those who believe either in only Christian or only Wicca. If you are looking to understand the Christian Wicca ways, that's one thing... if you're here to debunk or make light of these ways because they aren't what you believe, then I think you are on the wrong message board. From the tone of your post (i.e. "They can't be mixed"), I felt like you were leaning towards the latter. Perhaps you really are interested in the Christan Wicca ways, but if not, please don't insult the people of this religion with such petty posts as "You're kidding right?" regarding our ways. I don't know about the rest of the people here but I find that a wee bit insulting. If you don't like it or believe it, you don't have to be here. If you're curious, please be a bit more tactful about it.
Re: You're kidding right?
Phenyx:
Yes, gerald gardener taught cunningham, who spread it all over the world. This isn't my opinion, I have never met cunningham, I am just quoting what I have read on official wiccan sites. Yes, I hate generalizations too, but if you don't worship the goddess, or follow the main aspects of the religion you aren't really part of the religion are you? I mean, someone saying they don't believe in generalizations, and yet say they are a member of a specific religion, but don't follow it, is like a christian that doesn't believe in christ, god, or the devil. I know not all christians believe the same thing and I know that not all wiccans do either, I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth. Well lets see, wicca is based on worship of the earth and nature, so it's no suprise that it's in the bible as well, considering those things were around in biblical times, and just because what one believes is in another book, doesn't mean that they are part of that too otherwise I would probably be wiccan, buddhist, satanist, chaos, catholic, mormon and everything else in between, as would most.
Loki:
You are making assumptions about my intelligence, which shows you are lacking in it yourself. If christians strive to be like christ, and you are christian, why are you trying to insult me? I come here looking for an explanation, and I kept the majority of my feelings and personal beliefs aside, and I am greeted with hatred.
Although I hate to say, it seems that is a required christian attitude these days. It's sad, but it's the truth.
oh yeah, and I tend to treat others the way I'm treated, so loki, if it seems I enjoy insulting you from now on you'll know why.
Siobhan:
I also take my religion very seriously, wicca, and people saying they can turn it into something else, and have it still be wicca, is an insult to me and my beliefs. Yes, I did come here with an open mind, and I did ask for an explanation, as that was what I was looking for, and all I have gotten so far is hostility. I'm all for people making thier own religions based on thier personal beliefs, but I am against someone making thier own religion, and using the name of another religion for it.
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Siobhan88 Registered User
Posts: 3
(1/26/04 8:41 pm) Reply
Re: You're kidding right?
*The following are my personal ideas/opinions regarding Christian Wicca, they are not meant to be a concrete definition as many others may view it differently.*
Ndoki--
I don't think anybody here means to insult your religion or be openly hostile... but you have to admit, if somebody happened across your board who wasn't wicca and opened a topic titled, "You're kidding right?" regarding your ways, you wouldn't be too pleased either, am I right? The hostility I think can best be acredited to the title of your first post and the tone that it was in... it felt to me like you had a "holier-than-thou" attitude, and that's never fun. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, and I apologize if I was blunt.
Regarding the issue of insulting you and your ways, I think I speak for everybody here when I say that we don't mean to make light of your religion in any way by using its name to describe ours. We make no quarrel with Christianity, either. The title "Christian Wicca" is simply used, as I see it, to help us better understand ourselves and our ways by using terms that are familiar to us.
Picture this: the ways of Wicca, but instead of worshipping the goddess, horned god & elements, the diety is the holy trinity (Father, Son & Holy Spirit). That's the best way I can come up with to describe how I see this religion. I suppose I just get a lot more out of worship being out in the elements and wonders that are this amazing earth than I ever did sitting in a crowded church listening to somebody lecture the other church-goers and myself about the religion while people daydreamed, doodled or balanced their checkbooks all around me.
So, again, we mean NO insult to you or your ways by using the name of your religion to describe ours, we simply use it because it is a familiar term to us and because we follow the worship styles of Wicca, just not using the same dieties. Remember also, mimickry is the highest form of flattery.
Blessings,
-- Siobhan
amethystmoon
Unregistered User
(1/27/04 5:05 pm) Reply
RE: Are you kidding?
I really don't know where to begin or how far to go with this. Many good points have been made here, My problem is in something I read on your "Christian Wicca: The Oxymoron Syndrome: How can You Be a Christian and practice Wicca?" page.
"OH BOY" I was reading with an open mind tilll I read one little quote, "the Roman Catholic Church did this first."
UHG! How can you say that? I know my history with Constantine and all the stuff that went on in that era.
The Chatholic Church did not.....Grrr.
They went in with the intent to abolish the pagan beliefs. and in no way did they ever even begin to merge as one. What idols and such that were brought into the church was all part of the brainwashing tecnique that has been running rampid for thousands of yrs.
I'm stopping here, before i say something I regret.
If you trully wanna find a way to merge them, by all means if it is done with love. but someone needs to really read more of the hard to find history of the chatholic church.
Re: RE: Are you kidding?
Yes, if someone came onto my board and made a post like that I would be a little mad, consider it my little test. That was exactly the thing I was lookign for when I came here, and explanation, what you have finally given me, does create a much better picture, although I still have many questions I will leave for later. But for right now, I kinda figured that this is what it was all about, but I decided to ask for an explanation before jumping to conclusions. I don't know is you were just sucking up (for lack of a better term) or being honest, but it worked but there is just one thing I don't understand. The thing I ever tell anyone when asked about wicca is they only have 2 basic rules and a few common beliefs, if they are not followed, they are not wiccan. One of the biggest common beliefs is in the goddess, so naturally, those that don't believe in/worship her, aren't wiccan, right? So I just don't understand why you people need to feel like differentiating yourselves from other christians, when I have met many active christians, who are the exact same, and are quite content with calling themselves just christian. Wicca is about worshipping the earth, as we all know, and it's about feeling the energy around us, as many christians I know do believe, and many other things I'm sure you already know. I just don't see how they can be blended, and if they are in the way I already know, why you need to call yourselves something different. It's like painting a car blue, when you love the car, but like the color blue, it's still a car.
And you said you don't worship the goddess, just the biblical Godhead, and I find it strange you use the pentagram for your background, and even in the word 'god' on one of your banners, when the pentagram is in fact, the symbol of the goddess. As I said before, there are many things that I liked from other religions that I have adopted into my life, but I'm still just wiccan, not a wiccan-christian-buddhist-everything.
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Re: RE: Are you kidding?
Siobahn's opinions as she said are not representative of all Christian Wiccans. She is also not responsible for the design and mantainence of this forum, so *she* did not use a pentagram for any background. I did. I also design and mantain the christianwicca.com website. My friend Rev. Nancy Chandler-Pittman wrote the articles on the site and the book Christian Wicca: the Trinitarian Tradition. Check the site out sometime, many of the articles may answer your questions, including articles on the Christian Goddess. www.northernway.org is also a good resource on the concept. There are some paths of Wicca that believe in a deity that trancends gender, Angel Wicca is one. Personally I believe in the gnostic Christian goddess Sophia, the Father God, and the Son (Christ - the spirit who incarnated as Jesus) and the Daughter (who I believe incarnated as Mary Magdelen) This idea is represented by the Tetragramaton (the four letter name of God) YHVH or Yod He Vah He: Yod = Father, He = Mother, Vah = Son, He #2 = Daughter. This can be found various places but one book I can think of off the top of my head is The Witch's God by Janet and Stewart Farrar. There's also the concept of the Holy Spirit actually being the Mother goddess in disguise in the trinity... this is based on several ideas 1. the greek word for Spirit used in the New Testament texts refering to the Holy Spirit, pneuma, is a feminine noun. 2. The remaining fragments of the gnostic text the Gospel of James has Jesus introducing The Holy Spirit at his famous baptism as his Mother. 3. Jesus says the only unforgiveable sin is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit ie in my opinion "Don't you dare talk bad about my Mama!" All that on top of personal gnosis and the general feel of the being/deity I know as the Holy Spirit having that feminine/mother energy...
As far as the pentacle, besides the obvious (wicca etc) the pentacle is a symbol of power that has been in occult use long before the wiccan revival... and at some point in the middle ages actually represented the five wounds of Christ. It was used by occultists in many sigils attributed to the magic Solomon practiced. It's nothing new to Christianity. It's just a case of the negative getting better press and society came to associated it with LeVay because he was getting all the attention while Wiccans were hiding in their respective broom closets.
On the subject of the name of this forum: essentially we could be called eclectic wiccans... but that would not be the beacon that Christian Wicca is for seekers... There are many people who feel conflicted between their love for Christ and their draw towards earth spirituality, who without someone putting those two words together would never realize by reading commonly published media that they do not have to reject one over the other... the name is kinda like the lightbulb turning on that some people (maybe not all, but some need) If one feels close to Christ, and you know in your heart He has a heavenly mother and/or divine Lady/consort etc... that Our Father is not a single parent... and you feel drawn to earth spirituality why should you have to reject the god/goddess you know and love for any that seem distant and mythological? (at least at that point) A major thing in wicca is your choice of deity. If you can feel comfortable with Isis and Osirus, why not Jesus and Mary? If having a physical incarnation once in a while invalidates your divinity then I guess we also need to scratch off the list other deified beings such as Krishna, Bhudda, Rama, Osiris, Odin, Thor, Tammuz, Quetzlcotl, among several others...
Now I'm getting sleepy.. but I seriously suggest reading the essays on christianwicca.com... also the links section is loaded with links to other sites that reflect similar reasoning and beliefs...
Off to bed with me now...
Goddess Bless....
Phenyx Angel
Priestess of Sophia
Forum Moderator
www.phenyx-creations.com
Re: RE: Are you kidding?
I wasn't asking Siobahn specifically about the background, it was a general question aimed at whoever could answer, i.e. you. You say that the pentagram was really a symbol for the five wounds of Christ, etc. People can say whatever they want, I have also heard many say that the pentagram is the sign of the devil, many ALSO say, when the catholics were attempting to convert wiccans, they distorted wiccan facts in an attempt to convert, such as the horned god being satan, and also could very well be the symbol represents the five wounds of Christ. So either way, there isn't really any way to prove it. You say the name is intended for seekers, if wiccans followed that path it wouldn't be wicca, it would be "Tree hugging hippies" if one needs to change thier name in order to 'recruit' (and I use that term loosly) then it can't be the wholesome of a religion. A book with a good reputation will attract readers, no matter what the name is, and if the author spends more time thinking of a name for the book then writing it, it can't be that good of a book. I'm not saying anything about this religion, but that is what I have come to find. I have nothing against you guys, although I'm sure it may seem like it, it's not true, I just don't like the wiccan name being used as a plaything for others beleifs. Wicca is a full fledged, complete religion, either you are, or you aren't, I'm just bothered by the fact that it is being used as an adjective, not a noun.
At least I think that last part is right, I was never good in english, heh.
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Quote:I'm just bothered by the fact that it is being used as an adjective, not a noun.
Then perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with "compound terms".
"Christian Wicca" is not an adjective-noun composition, it is a noun-noun composition.
It is no different than terms like African American. Both are nouns, neither taking away from the other, but rather enhancing both to achieve a 3rd definition set that can only be reached by the combining of the terms.
Christian Wicca is the exact same thing. Neither term takes away from the other, instead, they work together to give a 3rd definition set. You don't have to accept that definition set, but that's your choice to be so ignorant.
And it seems you have made that choice. "They can't be mixed". "[those who claim to be christian and wiccan] were sorely wrong". Yet you later claim that you came here with an open mind. How is that when these statements are taken from your first post here? You did NOT come here with an open mind, you came here to tell the members of this board that they are WRONG in their views. You've simply tried to mask it by asking for an explanation of how it can be done--but you've already done the damage by the intensely insulting statements you made prior to that question.
Quote:oh yeah, and I tend to treat others the way I'm treated, so loki, if it seems I enjoy insulting you from now on you'll know why.
As it seems so do they. You started this mess and now you're still fighting to cover your butt. Will you, at any point, swallow your pride and just admit you were wrong in your approach and apologize? Or will you continue to claim it was the members of the board who initially insulted you when we can all see that it was the other way around?
Quote:Yes, if someone came onto my board and made a post like that I would be a little mad, consider it my little test.
This is not an apology--though it's as close as I've seen you come to one in this thread. Is this honestly how you enter message boards, by "testing" people with blatant insults? That's not to say this post (my first post on this board) is void of insults or negativity, but it is not a "test" to see how the members will react. The fact that you have tried to now hide behind a mask of a "test" is furthermore insulting not only to the board, but to your own dignity.
Quote:People can say whatever they want, I have also heard many say that the pentagram is the sign of the devil, many ALSO say, when the catholics were attempting to convert wiccans, they distorted wiccan facts in an attempt to convert, such as the horned god being satan, and also could very well be the symbol represents the five wounds of Christ. So either way, there isn't really any way to prove it.
Then why are you so hell-bent on proving you're right and the members of this board are wrong?
It is quite obvious from the statements you've made that you still have alot to learn about both Wicca and Christianity--let alone Christian Wicca. But until you learn that you're not always right, you'll never truley learn anything. And until you really open your mind and step back from your arrogance, I have nothing more to say to you.
I merely stated my opinion, I never said anyone else was wrong, and until I am proven otherwise, I will believe that. THAT is having an open mind, it doesn't mean I don't have opinions, I'm just not saying everyone else is wrong, don't put words in my mouth. I also never said it was right, or that I felt right about it, other than 'it was my little test', once again, puttign words in my mouth. I never said they were initially insulting, but I was not trying to insult anyone in my first post, so now that you mention it, yeah, I may have gotten one or two, but it doesn't bother me, because I can look past those sort of things, I know people can make mistakes, but it seems not many others do, including you. You keep continuing on about me insulting everyone. I was stating my opinions and asking questions, they may have come out wrong, but I was not intentionally insulting anyone, and if you want to continue holding that against me, then I will hold this religion against you, as I still find the use of MY religions name in another religion, insulting, even though it wasn't meant as such.
As I said, I treat others the way they treat me. I am not hell bent on proving anyone right or wrong, that's why I came in asking questions! Sheesh. If I thought something was wrong, and was intent on proving it, I wouldn't want to be trying to see it from the other side now would I? You are contradicting yourself, and once again, saying things about me that aren't true. Yes, I still do have alot to learn, as does everyone, that's why I was looking for explanations
Quote:And until you really open your mind and step back from your arrogance, I have nothing more to say to you.
and until you stop making assumtions and lies about why I'm here, there isn't any point in you trying to talk to me, as I didn't come here for an argument.
The only problem I have is the name, I admit that, and I'm sure everyone knows it already, but I do not think anyone is right or wrong, I never said that, as a matter of fact, I even agreed that nobody knows who is wright or wrong in the exact same post you used to quote me on in your last post.
"So either way, there isn't really any way to prove it."
It appears to me I'm not the one hell bent on insulting others.
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Jayjen35 Registered User
Posts: 3
(2/7/04 6:10 pm) Reply
Re: You're kidding right?
Hi, I just had a few questions I was wondering about.
You said in your post that if we don't follow the doctrines or aspects of Wicca that we can't call ourselves Wiccan (I in fact don't, but after a great deal of study of the Craft, I would refer to myself as a Christian Witch). Then say that the worship of the earth and nature as well as the goddess and horned god are the standard that you use for adherence to Wiccan doctrine.
However, there are Wicca that don't worship the horned God at all and only recognize him as the consort of the Goddess. There are those who say while they hold nature in great esteem and reverence as the outward manifestation of the energy and love of the God and Goddess they don't worship nature. There are Wiccans who don't believe in an sort of deity at all, only in energy that can be made use of. And there are Wiccans that, while acknowledging the deities don't worship them, but see their relationship as a very loving partnership. Yet, for the most part, they are generally accepted as Wiccan.
Okay, I do have a point here . It's that while there are many that identify themselves as Wiccan, within that group there are many ideas of what "Wiccan" is, down to the very nature of what and who they worship. As I understand it there is no universal value system or dogma that the Wicca must follow, I have read that even the rede is a suggestion and not a "must do". Given that fact why is it so difficult to believe that there are people that use a Christian pantheon as well as a value system based on Christ-like ideals. Why can't a person choose this value system and still be considered Wiccan? Keep in mind that by value system I don't mean the Jerry Faldwell "turn or burn" diatribe. Only the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning our behavior towards ourselves and each other.
OTOH, you say that in order to be a Christian you must believe in God, Jesus and the devil. Yet there are many Christians that in fact do not believe in the devil at all. There are many who don't believe in hell. There are many in fact that while they believe in his teachings and have dedicated their lives to becoming "Christ-like" don't believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. There are many who don't believe in the idea of the virgin birth, or for that matter original sin. But, at least by mainstream standards, are still considered to be, for the most part, Christians.
Given this diversity of belief, it seems to me perfectly possible that there are Christians that can also hold Wiccan beliefs. That they can in fact hold both beliefs in equal love and reverence.
That's not to say that others will consider them adherents of both religions. But, that it simply isn't possible to practice both Wicca and Christianity and do so effectively is IMHO incorrect. For example (although as I said I don't necessarily identify myself as Wiccan) I do worship the Goddess and God. I however see the Goddess as the feminine energy (nurturing, loving, protecting ect.) of the One. And I see the God as the male energy (creative, destructive, aggressive ect.) energy of the One. But I also, as a Christian, worship the One or God, as we like to call him/her as well as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. My question is what is "un-Wiccan" about those beliefs? If those that you do consider Wiccan can worship Isis, Diana, Kali or Pele, why can't they also, if they wish, worship Jesus?
Also, can you explain exactly what the core beliefs of Wicca are? Those that are shared universally by all Wicca? That way I can have a better idea of exactly what your objections to the idea of Christian Wicca are.
Sorry for the long post, I was just curious. I'm no theologian and am very new to this path so I'm just asking questions...the only way to learn right?
Re: You're kidding right?
Hello everyone, I just found this board and am very interested in all you guys are talking about.
My great grandmother was a Christian and a Witch. I never saw this as strange until I was older and the rest of the world didn't understand her beliefs and unfortunately influenced mine. It was only till I started studying both ways that I began to understand a little. I also know that in rural areas, there are often women who are Witches and do believe in God. Its not as uncommon as people might think. One friend of our family is such.
I believe in God and I believe in nature/the Goddess as a force. That might sound really weird and bizarre but I don't think so. I also practice the Craft and since I don't use it to harm anyone, I believe its a positive way for me to worship nature. My grandmother always said that God exists but the Bible was written by men. She did believe in the Goddess as well.
I think its hard for some people to get past their own beliefs whether they are Wiccan or Christian. I guess this is why I avoid both churches and covens.
I'm glad I found this board. Edited by: MadameValentino at: 2/9/04 5:38 pm
Allabap Registered User
Posts: 1
(2/17/04 4:09 pm) Reply
Cunningham stuff...
MM, I am new to the forum, this is my first post, just had to reply to this person. Are you for real? Did you just jump on the Wicca bandwagon, buy a book or two and look at the pictures? I am also a big fan of Scott Cunningham, but if your going to use his books as the Gospel of Wicca, you should really study his work a bit more closely. It is more because of his opinions than anything else that started making me think this was possible. Heres one quote from WICCA a guide for the solitary practitioner: [u]"In Wiccan thought, the Deities didn't exist before our spiritual ancesters acknowledgement of them. However, the energies behind them did; they created us. Early worshippers recognised these forces as Goddess and God, personifying them in an attempt to understand them."[/u] If you are going take that literally, the God and Goddess that you say are prerequisites for being Wiccan are energies and forces, the act of calling them "God and Goddess" or whatever is only neccessary if needing to understand them better through personification. It is the belief in these forces that are the only real prerequisite to being Wiccan, and any way we can help ourselves better envision and commune with them is a plus. When I was drawn to Wicca, I came to it with an open mind. My mind did not then slam shut. If it did, Wicca would not work for me, just as Christianity, not to speak for the religion or people as a whole, in my experience has always been too closed minded. My search for spiritual enlightenment did not begin on this website and will not end here, but I do resent the fact that because I was raised Christian, and may not wish to totally abandon my beliefs, people like you think that I can have no connection with the natural energies, and that I can enjoy no part of the beautiful path of Wicca. Do not get the impression that I do not know of the Christian churches view of Pagans, but not everybody that believes in Christ is in full agreement with the vatican you know.
Re: Cunningham stuff...
Is it just that people can't read what I type or what? People are free to believe whatever they want, if thier beliefs are consistant with the dogma of a certain religion, they are of that religion, people are still free to believe other things, but once thier beliefs are connected with two or more dogmas then there is a conflict, usually resolved with creating a new religion. Believing in energy does not make one wiccan, but believing that energy is your creater and THE omnipotent being (or the one right under, long story) then you ARE wiccan. I personally don't care if someone makes thier own religion, how many times do I have to say it? My sole concern is that the name of MY religion is being used for a totally different religion. I was raised christian as well, so don't assume I don't know what I, or you are talking about. Oh yeah, and no, I didn't just 'jump on' and buy a few books, if that was directed at me, I bought the books AFTER I became wiccan, and I didn't know any other wiccans at the time, I'll leave it up to you to figure that out, maybe it will give you something to do instead of judging people based on what you THINK you know about them.
As for the post previous to Allabap's I alread have the responce, I just need to finish it, when I'm not so lazy, heh.
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Re: Cunningham stuff...
Hmmm, I had a good post and my computer went crazy and it didn't show up.
Ok to make a long story short, I would call myself "spiritual" as opposed to Wiccan or Christian or even Christian-Wiccan. I come from such a diverse religious background and I do have a little bit of each of those guiding me. Let's see there were some Christians, psychics, a feminist-witch grandmother and another grandmother that is Choctaw. Most of my friends are Wiccan and I have a great respect for the religion.
Edited by: MadameValentino at: 2/18/04 12:05 am
Reply again
Hmmm, well your replys sound more like someone ready to join in holy war for HIS RELIGION because someone else is bastardising it. Whats the matter, this world isnt big enough for all this variety? You know, YOUR religion is very new itself, just based on alot of old beliefs, and there is quite a contraversy surrounding its validity in the pagan world itself,(most currently because Silver Ravenwolf is making such a commercial sham of it) and the many traditions continue to grow constantly. Every time a new Wiccan solitairy begins an eclectic path and begins choosing a path, a new tradition is born, private and personal or public as it may be. My purpose in posting replys to this thread is not to raise the banner of Christian Wicca, or to claim to be a Christian Wiccan, only that I do not share your opinions. But as a final note, I will just say that as I choose my path to be Wiccan while holding certain Christian beliefs, and this works very well for me and I am quite happy with it, YOU do me harm by making me feel my strong spiritual leanings are invalid. You have already done a turnaround from your stand on the God and Goddess, what difference to you is it how I personify the great powers that be? Believe me if you are reading Cunningham and other like authors, than we are working with the same energies, and if you want to call them Isis and Thor or Pan and Diane or whatever, its your call, and I believe it is mine also.
Open your heart, your mind may follow.
Blessed Be, Allabap.
Re: Reply again
Did I ever say that I can't handle all the variety? In fact, I promote and encourage variety among religions, and I have for years, but of course you just assume I don't, again. My religion may be new to the world, but it is not new to me. Once again, I didn't join this religion because of some book I read, but what I know myself, but once again you proceed to assume about my personal beliefs.
Quote:YOU do me harm by making me feel my strong spiritual leanings are invalid
I am wiccan with christian beliefs as well, and I never said there was anything against it, as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I have said that before (my apologizes if I didn't.) but again, you continue to make judgements based on things you DON'T know. How can I be making your opinions seem invalid, when I share in them myself?
I could go on and on, but until you actually start reading what I type instead of just skipping past it and making assumptions, there is no point in talking to you as almost every one of my replies is practically the exact same as the posts you are replying to.
And as for my beliefs on the goddess and the horned god, they have not changed since the day I learned about them, but of course you just assumed they did.
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Reply again from allabap
(Sigh), I just dont get it. What is it that you are saying again? OK, you are Wiccan and hold some Christian beliefs, as I. I didnt catch that before, sorry. But it does make me a bit more confused now about this thread. You seemed to agree that the God and Goddess aspect of Wiccan thought is personification of forces, as explained by Cunningham, now you don't, and seem to view them as actual beings, whatever that is not important as long as you are happy and comfortable in your beliefs. I aplogise for getting testy but I tend to read this thread before my morning coffee, and really shouldnt reply until I get home from work, it is just to emotional a subject for me. This whole Christian Wicca thing, I dont really know enough about it yet to be defending it, I am more interested in defending my right to call myself Wiccan while not having to abandon everything else I hold true. I did read the essays on the website and found them interesting enough where I decided to order the book. I havent recieved it yet, so I cant comment. But as I consider my self Wiccan, and hold Christian beliefs, and sometimes am at odds myself on just how to best combine the two, I got very curious and thought it might be enlightening. The essays on Gnosticism are very interesting, just on the website, as I am only starting to learn of it. I am totally in agreement that mainstream Christianity and Wicca just dont quite mesh even though I have been trying for 17 years, but Gnostic views of Christ and God blend quite nicely, and there is even a female Goddess aspect. Anyways, what confuses me is that you say you have Christian beliefs and are Wiccan, and you have such a problem with somebody coming up with a way to be Wiccan and Christian at the same time. Is it just the name? What else would it be called then Christian Wicca? Chricca?
Blessed Be, Allabap
crow Registered User
Posts: 20
(2/19/04 4:20 pm) Reply
Re: You're kidding right?
I have no intention for debating you.....what are you looking for? If you are looking for guidance why not seek in yourself.
You sound like a fundamentalist trying to pretend to be Wiccan.......I do not know you or your platform but I find it distressing that you might retard the growth of the people on this sight. They are here to grow to seek to learn. Some may chose Wicca some may not but the important part is that they do not want to be spoon fed dogma (yours or anyone elses) they want to find joy in a connection to whomever they call the divine. "An it harm none" that applies to the feelings of others as well you know, follow it if you are what you say you are.....Seek with the others on this site help them see what is is that brought you to the place you are in your life and maybe they may find inspiration from you, but don't act as is their hard work and search is all a joke becasue to them it is not.....attitudes like the ones in churches that tell them that their way is the only way is what started them on this journey in the first place....crow
but there is just one thing I don't understand. The thing I ever tell anyone when asked about wicca is they only have 2 basic rules and a few common beliefs, if they are not followed, they are not wiccan. One of the biggest common beliefs is in the goddess, so naturally, those that don't believe in/worship her, aren't wiccan, right? So I just don't understand why you people need to feel like differentiating yourselves from other christians, when I have met many active christians, who are the exact same, and are quite content with calling themselves just christian. Wicca is about worshipping the earth, as we all know, and it's about feeling the energy around us, as many christians I know do believe, and many other things I'm sure you already know. I just don't see how they can be blended, and if they are in the way I already know, why you need to call yourselves something different. It's like painting a car blue, when you love the car, but like the color blue, it's still a car.
. It's that while there are many that identify themselves as Wiccan, within that group there are many ideas of what "Wiccan" is, down to the very nature of what and who they worship. As I understand it there is no universal value system or dogma that the Wicca must follow, I have read that even the rede is a suggestion and not a "must do". Given that fact why is it so difficult to believe that there are people that use a Christian pantheon as well as a value system based on Christ-like ideals. Why can't a person choose this value system and still be considered Wiccan? Keep in mind that by value system I don't mean the Jerry Faldwell "turn or burn" diatribe. Only the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning our behavior towards ourselves and each other.
as well as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. My question is what is "un-Wiccan" about those beliefs? If those that you do consider Wiccan can worship Isis, Diana, Kali or Pele, why can't they also, if they wish, worship Jesus?
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