the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 550
(6/16/01 19:40) Reply
Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
In the past three weeks I have witnessed two seperate incidents by two seperate gorean masters.
In these two incidents both 'masters' attempted to correct seperate 'gorean slave women' in seperate public forums.
It was later pointed out to both 'men' both in email and in one case the forum not just by myself but by others that the corrections themselves were incorrect.
In my emails I asked if they were both man enough to admit they were wrong.
To this date there have been no retractions or applogies to these women.
In fact the {in}actions of the men speak volumes.
Gorean honour means never having to admit when you are wrong.
But we already knew that, dinnae we?
I want to point out to a lot of people who have this misconception (This is not necessarily the case with these guys your speaking about Sha, since I don't know the circumstances, just guessing from what you said);
Gor was/is a world made up of individuals, just like earth was/is. Therefore, some folks have honor, some do not. Some are cowards, some are not, some slaves were good slaves, some were not, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Lange made it clear in the books he was not trying to write a story of a world where all men and women were the same, honorable and brave to a fault, perfect serves, dutiful obedient girls, but a world of individuals just like earth. His characters are anything but supermen and women, they are people, just like us, who sometimes excel and sometimes are as perverse, strange and base as we are here in the real world. On that level, I think Lange did quite well in his tales.
I see people all the time who say "That's not Gorean", or "That's Disney Gor" ( a saying I despise for it's overuse and general inaccuracy ) when in reality, many things that they consider to be such, did in fact happen on Gor. There WERE spoiled slaves who did stupid things, there WERE slaves who were reserved, there WERE slaves who's Masters would get all jealous over and even challenge other men to DEATH matches over because they felt that they had "accosted" THEIR slaves! ( Read the adventures of Jason Marshall, books 15, 16, and 17 for examples of this. )
So people, when you see something that is "ungorean", don't get your panties in a knot over it and open your trap before you know the facts, and even then, think twice about saying anything. Don't feel like you have to correct someone if you see them doing something you see as "Disney". If it isn't something that affects you....shud up ahready why don'tya!
"It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt."
Chinese Philosophy
(advice I should prolly take more often!)
Kev
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
Tal Xsha Tell
I am a bit confused by this Post for a couple of reasons.
You make reference to "gorean masters." What would that be?
I suspect that you are making the common mistake of linking Gorean Philosophy, and those who practice it, with BDSM. There are some who may view BDSM as a distant relative to Gorean lifestyle, but I do not think there is even a slight connection.
In any case, there is no such thing as a Gorean Master. Master is simply the proper form of address used by a slave to a male. It is not a job title, or a rank, or a position one reaches after passing tests. Like the word Dom, for example.
You would have been more correct if you had just used the term, "Gorean men." I suppose the lack of a capital letter was just a grammatical slip, but you will find, as you advance in your education, that proper grammar is important, as sometimes the meaning of whole thoughts may be altered by a grammatical mistake.
For example, one may think that using a small "g" in gorean implies you do not think the word deserves even the consideration of a capital letter.
Also, I am having a hard time understanding your point. Is there a connection between honor, and admitting a mistake?
Again I am assuming, from the context, that your comment that Gorean honour means never having to admit when you are wrong, is meant as sarcasm.
Honor, and especially, Gorean Honor, is a rather complex thing, however, it does not encompass everything that goes on in the interaction of human beings. There are certain things that one would expect of a "man" as proper behavior, or even "good sport" behavior. Owning up to an error, saying thank you, showing hospitality to a guest, are some examples. These are certainly good things, but I do not think they really have much to do with honor.
In the case of Gorean honor, it has nothing to do with females, but rather is a guide for the interaction of men with men. This very point is what so often upsets females, and non-Gorean males. It is so "politically incorrect" these days to exclude females from anything.
You did not mention which "public" forums. If they were Gorean public forums, I can certainly understand why no retraction to a female was given.
They are not really owed anything, let alone an apology.
Admitting their mistake to you in email, or acknowledging it on the forum for the benefit of those who pointed it out might have been a nice, polite gesture.
However, the men may have thought it was none of your business, and they may have thought the others who corrected them had done so well enough to set the record straight.
In any case, honor was not involved. I think you might have to gain a better understanding of the concept.
<<<<>>>
Now, that little message board trick has a bit more to do with honor, as you are addressing men. It is a way of making it seem that you are standing in front of a large group of like minded people, who totally agree with what you say, and are nodding their heads. Any good debate judge would take off a few points for that one. Even if there were a lot of people who agree, and they had elected you their spokesmen, "we" have been wrong in the past.
In conclusion, a note to Kevin T. Relic:
I agree with you. People are much to quick to butt in with their "corrections", and so often, they are just teaching online myth to someone who is trying to understand the books,,,or they are teaching the books to someone who is trying to understand real life, or they are trying to teach real life to someone who is trying to understand online myth. It is, certainly, better to listen awhile, ask a few questions, and try to understand before you start "correcting."
This is an edit to the above post. I meant to include a quote from Xsha Tell's post between the <<<>>>>,,,but it did not come out right. The section about "message board trick" was in reference to the following:
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 553
(6/17/01 14:50) Reply
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
"For example, one may think that using a small "g" in gorean implies you do not think the word deserves even the consideration of a capital letter".
You got that right.
"Again I am assuming, from the context, that your comment that Gorean honour means never having to admit when you are wrong, is meant as sarcasm".
Nope, meant as fact.
"Owning up to an error, saying thank you, showing hospitality to a guest, are some examples. These are certainly good things, but I do not think they really have much to do with honor".
So someone who refuses to do these things is certainly bad and doing the wrong thing, thanks for the clarification.
Honour:
high respect, public regard
adherence to what is right
Now if someone is not doing the right thing and is not owning up to an error then by your definition and the Oxford English Dictionary they are not honourable, on Earth.
So my statement stands:
"Gorean honour means never having to admit when you are wrong."
If you have no honour you wouldn'{glottal stop}t know the difference in the first place.
"You did not mention which "public" forums. If they were Gorean public forums, I can certainly understand why no retraction to a female was given".
"They are not really owed anything, let alone an apology".
Thank You, again, for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt as to why gorean 'philosophy' is sick and perverted, in a "natural" sense.
And yes they were both public gorean forums one very 'infamous'.
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
Tal Xsha Tell
I wrote:
"Owning up to an error, saying thank you, showing hospitality to a guest, are some examples. These are certainly good things, but I do not think they really have much to do with honor".
To which you replied:
So someone who refuses to do these things is certainly bad and doing the wrong thing, thanks for the clarification.
Honour:high respect, public regard
adherence to what is right
Now if someone is not doing the right thing and is not owning up to an error then by your definition and the Oxford English Dictionary they are not honourable, on Earth."
Now, come on, XSha Tell, I know it is Sunday, and most likely a kicked back day, and I also suspect from reading some of the threads here, that many of the people you have had discussions with are using the computer in the office at the Mental Institute where they are locked up, but I assure you this is not the case with me, and you are going to have to do much better.
In the above, I used the word "good", and you changed the concept to "right.", and proceeded to make your point. Sneaky little trick, that, but I caught it. I do not think one can think of good and bad as absolutes, with no ground inbetween. For example, if I go out tonight and spend the evening feeding the Homeless of my city,,,,I am certainly doing a good thing. If you stay home and watch the Blue Jay game, can we say you are doing a "bad" thing? Not doing good is not bad. Nor is not doing bad good.
So, your comment that someone who refuses to do "these things" in the about comment is not correct.
To try to make it even clearer, the posters in your original post can not be said to be bad because they did not do a polite thing. And right! Now, that is a heavy concept, and a radical jump from what I said to your point. Honour may be adherence to what is right, but in that context, a simple failure to use good manners could not be right or wrong. To say so is to imply that a person who forgets to say, "excuse me" when he sneezes, has proven himself dishonorable.
This is why you are having such a hard time understanding all this. You are wallowing down in a gutter of common human weakness and poor manners, and thinking you are discussing something lofty like honor. You are not unlike a person posting on an Opera Lovers Message board that "Conway Twitty is cool".
You also wrote:
"Thank You, again, for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt as to why gorean 'philosophy' is sick and perverted, in a "natural" sense."
Ah, I expected that. Another ruling from the "XSha Tell Debate Scoring Service" It is, I suppose a good thing to have an arbitration service to settle debates, but isn't it a little shady to use yourself. That is not good, so it must be bad, and therefore not right, and herefore, not honorable?
My comment about "not owing anything to a female" was an invitation to serious debate. A debate about issues that you go on and on about, but never really deal with. To say that the comment "proves something sick and perverted in a natural sense" and let it go at that is cowardly. And I don't think you would have won any formal debate with a rebuttal that consisted of saying nothing more than....I am right because you are sick and perverted,,nyah, nyah, nyah.
I think you can do better.
Note to Wren Ann.
When in Rome, do as the Romans. On this board, it would be message board suicide to point out, as I might do on my own board, that you could have sent your catty little comment to Xsha Tell via another means than tacking it onto a thread where men are having a serious discussion. So, I won't comment on your lack of manners, or the immaturity of going on with your little teasing joke way past its "funny" time.
If you need something to write about, try this.
Abortion is the killing of another human being for a selfish reason. In this sense, it is not different than the killing of a baby because it is weak and will not service the communtity, or the killing of a child because the groceries bills are getting too high, or the the killing of a rival coke dealer because he has invaded your turf, or the killing of Tim McVeigh because he killed 168 innocent people. Killing a human being is killing a human being, the only difference is which selfish reason is used to justify it.
I welcome anyone who would wish to prove this wrong to take their best shot, either on this thread, or by starting a new one. By the way, if any of you are going to use some of those feeble arguments that you posted awhile back on another thread, feel free to just reference me back to them, to save typing.
I wish you all well,
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
Gorm, that you could have sent your catty little comment to Xsha Tell via another means than tacking it onto a thread where men are having a serious discussion. I was commenting on the humorous glottal stops that Sha has been adding in his posts today. (If you have no honour you wouldn'{glottal stop}t know the difference in the first place.) He got it from Zeb's post on grammar on the SS site. Meow. If you need something to write about, try this.
Abortion is the killing of another human being for a selfish reason. Been there, done that. The post is still up and you can still comment on that thread. Here's the reference again.
http://pub1.ezboard.com/faolgoranmorethegoreansoapbox.showMessage?topicID=32.topic
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 555
(6/17/01 20:30) Reply
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
"In the above, I used the word "good", and you changed the concept to "right."...
The definition as we are dealing with.
Good:
having the right or desired qualities.
kind, valid,
Right: just, moral, correct, true.
Even the defintion of Good uses the word right.
"Ah, I expected that. Another ruling from the "XSha Tell Debate Scoring Service" It is, I suppose a good thing to have an arbitration service to settle debates, but isn't it a little shady to use yourself. That is not good, so it must be bad, and therefore not right, and herefore, not honorable?
My comment about "not owing anything to a female" was an invitation to serious debate. A debate about issues that you go on and on about, but never really deal with. To say that the comment "proves something sick and perverted in a natural sense" and let it go at that is cowardly. And I don't think you would have won any formal debate with a rebuttal that consisted of saying nothing more than....I am right because you are sick and perverted,,nyah, nyah, nyah.
I think you can do better".
Tell us all how that emboldened statement is anything but sexist and biggoted?
Yup another point to me, {I even scored one of off Zeb} if you are counting, gorean about -32 .
But you know, I'm not the one who has mentioned anything about keeping track of points scored. It is always the goreans that bring this up.
If you read Dr. John Gray Ph.D you will be enlightened to know that it is the female of the species that does so, not the males.
"a woman keeps score, no matter how big or small"
-J. Gray Ph. D.
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
I want to correct something I posted earlier in this string; I said that Jason Marshall's adventures were books 15, 16 and 17 when they are actually 14, 15 and 16. My bad.
Kev
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
Good Morning Xsha Tell
You wrote:
The definition as we are dealing with.Good:having the right or desired qualities.
kind, valid,
Right: just, moral, correct, true.
Even the defintion of Good uses the word right.
I note that you did not use your source here. Webster's New American Dictionary lists 20 definitions for the adjective "Good." None of them use the word "right."
Too, I went to great lengths to show that the concept of good that I used in my statement about the men who did not retract their corrections was more like the first definition listed:
"of a favorable character or tendency"
Once again, Xsha Tell, they were quilty of boorish manners at the most. Their actions did not prove that Gorean men have no honor. Their actions only showed that they, and they alone, did not have good manners in the accepted Western Culture concept of manners.
I am having a good laugh at your expense this morning over my coffee. If you take the time to reread your post you will see why. The quote from my post is making fun of your tendency to annouce yourself the winner on this board with comments like:
"That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt." "Once again I have destroyed your argument." "I have made a pre-emptive strike at the heart of your argument."
That kind of thing. I didn't say anything about scoring points.
You, however, right away annouce a score. "goreans -32" , and brag about scoring a point over Zeb. (Which, by the way, comes across as praise to him. It is like a ballplayer bragging about getting a hit off Randy Johnson. It is quite a feat to do so against one of the best pitchers. Can't you see that your constant references to Zeb are giving him more and more credibility?)
Anyway, YOU bring up scoring points, not me, and then you point out some shrink who says that is a quality of females. Ok. If you say so. You would know better than I if you have female tendencies or not.
This habit of yours of using a dictionary to make an argument is interesting. I think I will try it.
bigot (bigoted) one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions...fanatic, enthusiast, zealot.
Sort of like Xsha Tell's opinion of Goreans?
and sexist---prejudice or discrimination based on sex, esp. discrimination against women.
(hell, even my dictionary is sexist. How about discrimination against men getting an "esp" also?)
and finally--discriminate, make a difference in treatment on a basis other than individual merit.
So, I have, by this definition, been truely quilty of some "sexist" things in just the last few days. I held open the car door for my wife, while I let my male friend open his own door. Sexist! I refrained from walking into my young daughters room while she was dressing because she was a female. Sexist!
It is a bit like that T-shirt, I saw a girl wearing at work the other day. This was written on the front.
"You say Bitch like its a bad thing."
Well, you throw out your emotional catch words as do most zealots and bigots, and I really just have to say.
"You say bigoted and sexist like its a bad thing"
As a person who lives by what is becoming known as Gorean philosophy, I refuse to acknowledge or accept the "sameness" of the two distinct genders of my species. Therefore, I have no choice but to discriminate against women, ie, make a difference in how I treat them based on other than merit.
This difference can be good or bad. It can be right or wrong. Good manners, as my mom taught me, for example, are by definition, sexist, as they apply to the treatment of females.
I had a very successful run as a girl's softball coach by being sexist, and realizing that females playing softball were not the same as boys playing baseball. Other, non-sexist, coaches who missed this point, and treated the girls like boys, went down to my teams like grass before the lawnmower.
I raised two daughters. One who is a Marine, one who is a cheerleader with the Baltimore Ravens. They are very exceptional young ladies, because they were raised to be females.
I remember buying them flowers on the day they started mentruating for the first time. How sexist of me.
No, Xsha Tell, women are not owed anything by virtue merely of the fact that they are women. To think otherwise is bigoted and sexist, by definition.
So, my original comment...."they are not OWED anything, let alone an apology" was not bigoted and sexist as you claimed.
Which returns me to my orginal point once again. Your whole post, your examples of the two men who did not retract or apologize was a comment on the poor manners of those two men, as you view good manners, but said nothing about honor, and more to the point, said nothing about Gorean Honor.
You were just bashing Goreans like any other bigoted zealot with little logic or thought. There are, for sure, many areas that are subject to debate, and many areas where the ideas espoused by those who claim to be "Goreans" are somewhat suspect, and certainly, unclear, and often against the accepted mores of our society. All of these are good topics for an "AOL Gorean board."
This thread that you started here is not one of them, and I wonder if you will ever have the good manners, or be man enough, to admit that.
If I were to stoop to your level, I might make a comment like this:
canadian honour means never having to admit when you are wrong.
but we already knew that, dinnae we?
But, I don't think I will stoop to your level today, for one thing, you just might, and I repeat, just might, not represent all Canadian men, and, of course, saying, we already knew that, is just a sneaky little message board trick.
Opps, I forgot something.
You wrote "tell us all how that emboldened statement is anything but sexist and biggoted"
Now, there you go again with that little trick,,,the "tell us all" thingy. It paints a picture of you sitting in front of a mass of people, all of whom agree with everything you say and think, and none of whom have any more idea of what someone is saying than you do.
It really speaks poorly of the Canadian education system that it let you advance out of elementary school without breaking you of that habit.
It may be possible that you are the only one in the entire world who needed me to explain to you that my comment was neither bigoted or sexist. Or, on the other hand, perhaps, everyother reader may have been asking that same question. In either case, you had no right to assume one way or the other.
That is why I addressed myself to you, and to you alone. I , at least, have the good manners, and the respect for the intelligence and the freedom of thought of the other readers of this board to let them make up their own minds, and to freely, express their own opinions. I don't speak for anyone except myself....why don't you give that radical concept a try yourself someday. Is it possible, and this is only a question, that you would be afraid to hold an opinion that you did not think was held by the majority?
Do you dislike Goreans so much because they are taking stands on issues that fly in the face of the majority. Would you have the courage to take a stand on something unless you felt the comforting support of the masses behind you?
hmmm, I wonder.
and I wish you well
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 560
(6/18/01 16:49) Reply
Re: Wherefore Art Thou Gorean Honour?
"Is there a connection between honor, and admitting a mistake"?
Perhaps, but there certainly is a direct correlation between making a mistake and owning up to it.
Which neither gorean 'man' did.
Thus in this case they have no honour.
Or they feel becuase they are 'men' they need not appologise, either or, still makes for a man with no honour in western society.
I thought goreans were suppose to have morehonour than such men.
But it proves out that this concept of gorean honour is no more based on anything but fiction than the rest of the philosophy.
"It is so "politically incorrect" these days to exclude females from anything".
Politically correct?
Please to exclude anyone from anything simply because of sex in sexist and bigoted, there is no other way to look at it.
Again thank you for proving my beliefs about goreans that they are indeed sexist and bigoted.
"Honour may be adherence to what is right, but in that context, a simple failure to use good manners could not be right or wrong. To say so is to imply that a person who forgets to say, "excuse me" when he sneezes, has proven himself dishonorable".
If a man has honour he will not "forget" to say excuse me period.
If a man has honour there will be no "failure" to use good manners, period.
But we are speaking about more than manners, we are speaking about giving a human being respect, but from your posts you obviously believe only certain human being deserve it.
"You are wallowing down in a gutter of common human weakness and poor manners, and thinking you are discussing something lofty like honor".
So you are saying that these 'men' are weak I whole heartedly agree.
It is impoosible to have lofty honour if you cannot even master the common human weakness of poor manners, now is it.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."
When On Gor, Do As The Goreans.
Good luck on that one.
When On Earth Do As The Earthlings.
"I note that you did not use your source here".
You are obviously not very observant, I did state from where I got my definitions.
"I went to great lengths to show that the concept of good that I used in my statement about the men who did not retract their corrections was more like the first definition listed: "of a favorable character or tendency".
So you agree that these men are not of favourable character or tendency, thus they are not good according to the definition.
"Can't you see that your constant references to Zeb are giving him more and more credibility?"
You are the only one whom sees that.
"You would know better than I if you have female tendencies or not".
We all have both tendencies, it is only the very rare pathology that does not. And these persons are very dangerous to society, are you saying you have no female tendencies.
I'd like to study that.
"bigot (bigoted) one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions...fanatic, enthusiast, zealot".
"Sort of like Xsha Tell's opinion of Goreans"?
I have been waiting for a very very long trime for someone to point this out.
I am hardly bigoted nor are my opinions about goreans, when you speak out against hate, sexism, slavery, homophobia, and white supremacy you are hardly being a bigot.
It is the last defence of a bigot in fact, to claim "we have a right to believe what we believe" this is simply not the legal truth.
"You say bigoted and sexist like its a bad thing"
You said that women do not deserve the respect of an appolgy, that takes it far from your ridiculous and spurious argument about walking in on your daughter.
"As a person who lives by what is becoming known as Gorean philosophy, I refuse to acknowledge or accept the "sameness" of the two distinct genders of my species. Therefore, I have no choice but to discriminate against women, ie, make a difference in how I treat them based on other than merit.
This difference can be good or bad. It can be right or wrong. Good manners, as my mom taught me, for example, are by definition, sexist, as they apply to the treatment of females".
Again pure spurious argument.
Sameness perhaps, equal yes.
"No, Xsha Tell, women are not owed anything by virtue merely of the fact that they are women. To think otherwise is bigoted and sexist, by definition.
So, my original comment...."they are not OWED anything, let alone an apology" was not bigoted and sexist as you claimed".
That was not your argument, my how gorean of you to obfiscate.
Your argument was plainly stated "In the case of Gorean honor, it has nothing to do with females". and "They{women} are not really owed anything, let alone an apology.
You state simply because of sex, women have no{gorean} honour and are not owed anything let alone an apology.
Thus a gorean mans honour means never having to appologise for a mistake to a women.
My if that is not sexist and bigoted then nothing is.
"Now, there you go again with that little trick,,,the "tell us all" thingy. It paints a picture of you sitting in front of a mass of people, all of whom agree with everything you say and think, and none of whom have any more idea of what someone is saying than you do".
Ridiculous, the us refers to the people whom post and read this forum nothing more, but another attempt of yours to misdirect.
You said you wanted "intellegent" {note sp} conversation.
I simply asked you to scientifically prove your points.
But no other gorean has been able to accept the the challenge, better "goreans" than you I will add. Instead you run around in circles trying to cover your ass with ridiculous spurious arguments and mis direction.
"...readers of this board to let them make up their own minds, and to freely, express their own opinions".
Well at least I do give the readers here that opportunity unlike the myriad of gorean boards that are to afraid of the science fact that shows up their science fiction.
In other words goreans never allow people to express their own opinions unless they are of like mind, otherwise the "opinions" are deleted and the person banned.
I do not state my opinion, I state fact.
"I don't speak for anyone except myself....why don't you give that radical concept a try yourself someday."
I see all throughout your posts you speaking for "goreans".
"Is it possible, and this is only a question, that you would be afraid to hold an opinion that you did not think was held by the majority"?
"Do you dislike Goreans so much because they are taking stands on issues that fly in the face of the majority".
Afraid, hardly indeed that is a lark, as I already stated I will not base my known beliefs upon a set of science fiction books, especially when everything science proves flies in the face of that fiction.
"Would you have the courage to take a stand on something unless you felt the comforting support of the masses behind you"?
Certainly, I have spoken out in temple against the human rights abuses inflicted upon the Palestinians by my own brethren.
That brother is the epitomy of courage and bravery.
As for your not mentioning a point systeme:
..."XSha Tell Debate Scoring Service" ...
Do you actually read what you write?
You certainly do not remember what you write.
Forest Gorm, Stupid is as stupid does.
Mr. Kassa, "You say bigoted and sexist like its a bad thing"
As a person who lives by what is becoming known as Gorean philosophy, I refuse to acknowledge or accept the "sameness" of the two distinct genders of my species. Therefore, I have no choice but to discriminate against women, ie, make a difference in how I treat them based on other than merit. Would it be bigotted of me to say, I don't want someone who dresses in Nazi uniforms and screams "Kill all the Jews!" to be my friend? Would I be bigotted by protesting against the KKK rallies, while they run around preaching "Only White is right!"?
What makes you any different from them when you state, "I have no choice but to discriminate against women." You do have a choice, its plain and simple. You see women as property, beasts, cannon fodder, undeserving of any respect by choice. There is a big difference between saying, "I don't respect Mary because she lies or cheats or steals." When you lump all of womankind into that picture because your gorean philosophy says you shouldn't respect women, then slap a swatstika on your sleeve, you're almost there. We all have a choice and we are accountable for our actions.
I think its sad that you would find it acceptable that your daughters might never be offered the respect of a man simply because they are female. Oh but they aren't into gor, but if this movement keeps growing they could be. I would love to see your face if one of these "men" were to say, "I'd like your daughter, she's good breeding stock." Just buy her another bouquet, that will suffice.
Will I ever respect a gorean man? I don't know, I doubt it. He'd have to earn it first and well, he doesn't owe me that. ;)
Re: Forest Gorm, Stupid is as stupid does.
Wren Ann are you a complete idiot?
That was the worst post I have ever seen anyone write, male, female, or animal.
1. I clearly defined "discriminate" before I used it in the sentence you quoted. It means to treat differently for reasons other than merit. I further stated that my discrimination toward women consisted of manners. Things like opening the door for my wife, or giving up my seat on the bus to a lady, or coaching a girls softball team different than a boys baseball team.
From that simple quote you rant on about killing jews, about wearing swatstikas on my sleeve. About regarding women as property.
You made several statements about me without having one fact, or statement of mine to back them up. That makes you a liar.
That was way out of line. My father waded ashore on Omaha beach to fight nazism. My Uncle was killed bringing men ashore the same day. I served in the United States Air Force and the Army National Guard. And I have never, can you even spell...n e v e r.....worn a swatstika on my sleeve. I do not see women as beasts, or property. (Read my interview in the Gorean Voice) and I don't even pay much attention to women in "my Gorean Philosophy" let alone lump them anywhere.
Everything you wrote in your post was pure bull crap, and had not one drop of fact, or truth to it. That kind of sick, perverted, low life, crawl out from under the rock kind of garbage is typical of the trailer trash kind of female you are.
There Wren Ann. How was that. It is easy to spew lies. It is easy to spew hatred. You don't know me. You have certainly not taken the time to read anything I wrote.
I am going to take a moment to wash my hands, even typing to you is making me sick, and makes me feel dirty.
To take something as trivial as a simple comment that I do not feel an obligation to show manners to women, and equate it to the killing of Six Million people by the Nazi's is about as sick and perverted a thing as I have heard. That was not something that happened so you could act like a big shot on a message board. It makes a mockery of every one of those deaths to trivalize them like that.
Aren't you ashamed of yourself, girl.? Isn't there enough porn and filth in this world without you spewing it out into Message boards.
Isn't there enough hate in the world without you?
You make me want to vomit.
No wonder you are such a fan of abortion rights. I only wish your mother had been one as well.
And by the way, and I don't know why I bother, I have walls in my house with more brains than you have, but, to answer your questions. Yes, you would by the dictionary definition, be a bigot for not liking nazis because they were nazis, or KKK klansmen merely because they were klansmen. That is what is wrong with the word bigot. We are all bigots to our own prejudices, so the word becomes a meaningless catchphrase.
Of course, I know what you mean when you use it. And I know what most people mean. There is a difference between right and wrong, but you see, little girl,,,even the bad guys think they know that difference, and the nazis thought the jews were out to get them, and the Klansmen think that blacks are planning to rape their women. You see, words like bigot don't help....only reason,,,honesty,,,which I doubt you know anything about,,,those kind of things can make it better.
All the name calling in the world will not help.
When you learn that, you might, just maybe, be ready to contribute something.
Re: Forest Gorm, Stupid is as stupid does.
"In the case of Gorean honor, it has nothing to do with females". and, "They{women} are not really owed anything, let alone an apology".
Stands for itself and shows whom you are succintly.
You say you show no manners to women, that women are not deserving of such from you. The above quote also shows that you feel women are not owed anything for any reason.
For no other reason than their sex.
By basing your sole reason on the sex of a person and deciding that you do not need to show them manners
{"or anything"} does make you a sexist bigot."
Fact.
Period.
Again, an aside, being intolerant against intolerance does not make a bigot. That is simply a spurious argument by someone whon is losing their argument.
Further Gorm, your reaction to Wren, a female, is hilarious.
For a gorean man whom does not owe women anything you certainly do get upset by what she says.
You simply lost it, over what a lowly women{sic} wrote, my, my, you obviously need to master yourself.
Further you say that goreans abide by the rules of the society in which they live. That this is a part of what makes a gorean, gorean, you say.
By anyones account you are not following the rules of the society in which you live.
I thought Texas was big on treating women well and showing manners.
The very fact that you do not follow the rules and mores of the society in which you live can only mean, by your own explanation, that you are not gorean.
Re: Forest Gorm, Stupid is as stupid does.
Mr. Kassa,
1. I clearly defined "discriminate" before I used it in the sentence you quoted. It means to treat differently for reasons other than merit. I further stated that my discrimination toward women consisted of manners. Things like opening the door for my wife, or giving up my seat on the bus to a lady, or coaching a girls softball team different than a boys baseball team.
From that simple quote you rant on about killing jews, about wearing swatstikas on my sleeve. About regarding women as property.
You made several statements about me without having one fact, or statement of mine to back them up. That makes you a liar.
Ok, let’s look at it more closely. On another board you stated and I quote:
I have clearly stated, and I do so again, that I do not feel that I owe any respect to women. I am, so that you don't waste more bandwidth writing it ten more times....a bigot and a sexist. I do not like homosexuals, nor do I tolerate them in my own personal circle.
So, I have, by this definition, been truely quilty of some "sexist" things in just the last few days. I held open the car door for my wife, while I let my male friend open his own door. Sexist! I refrained from walking into my young daughters room while she was dressing because she was a female. Sexist!
Opening doors for women is lovely, I like it when someone opens a door for me and I always thank the man who does it. Men thank me when I open the door for them. It's courteous and nothing more, not a sign of respect.
Do you think it is acceptable for a businesswoman to walk down the street and be subjected to the unwelcome catcalls and whistles from men? That’s a clear example of not owing her any respect on the merits of her gender. Her existence at that moment is for the amusement and pleasure of men. Is it really that far of a stretch is this example to any of the other numerous examples of how women are treated and viewed on the Gor posts?
“Honor, and especially, Gorean Honor, is a rather complex thing, however, it does not encompass everything that goes on in the interaction of human beings. There are certain things that one would expect of a "man" as proper behavior, or even "good sport" behavior. Owning up to an error, saying thank you, showing hospitality to a guest, are some examples. These are certainly good things, but I do not think they really have much to do with honor.”
I will say that their Gorean honor is subjective. It’s easily twisted to fit the needs of the person claiming ownership. Maybe I am wrong; maybe I assume that Gorean honor is being used like integrity. Owning up to an error, good manners and hospitality is not an example of one’s losing his “honor”. It is just common courtesy. Zeb and the other members of Gor have decided that they are the litmus test for the true Gorean lifestyle and they hold themselves high above the rest, their failure is not acknowledging their error and apologizing because they are bound by their honor.
No wonder you are such a fan of abortion rights. I only wish your mother had been one as well.
She was and still is. In 1961, she needed a court order in order to have an abortion to remove a dead fetus from her body. Even with a clearly lifeless, seven month gestation, fetus decomposing inside of her womb and the sepsis that almost killed her, an abortion was considered illegal and immoral. I am proud that she and I think so immorally.
Yes, you would by the dictionary definition, be a bigot for not liking nazis because they were nazis, or KKK klansmen merely because they were klansmen.
I am proud once again, that I am what you view as a bigot.
Re: Forest Gorm, Stupid is as stupid does.
Dear Wren Ann
That was much better. Some good thoughts, not many name callings. I am proud of you. I knew you could do better.
Two suggestions. That smartass scarcasm tends to diminish your message. I know it should be the song and not the singer, but, heaven knows, not many look past the singer. So, when you do things like that cute. Forest Gorm, thing, it doesn't make what you say any more valid.
By the way, I like that movie, and think it shows what a person can do despite handicap. To compare me to him is really quite a compliment, although you did not mean it that way. You are mocking a handicapped person, and I am admiring him, Wow,,that is a switch in your preconceived notion of things, isn't it.
As well, the Mr. Kassa, is childish. I, like forty million other internet users have a screen name. Making fun of a person's name is not good manners. And really a bit out of line in a thread that was started over a discussion about good manners in the first place.
Also, as I am not a spokesman for Gor, neither is Zeb. Since I clearly stated that I consider the Silk and STeel to be a fringe, and extreme group that does not represent the mainline Gorean community, to constantly compare me to him, and them, is a bit like using a bunch of snake handling Tennessee mountain Pentacostals as a guide for mainline Evengelical Christians.
I will make you a deal. I will not compare you to Madonna, if you do not compare me to Zeb. Although both you and her are women, and both Zeb and I are Goreans, we should stand and fall on our own merits, not theirs. Deal?
When I said Gorean Honor, as I see it, has nothing to do with women it was a bit like saying that Jock STrap sizes have nothing to do with women. It is a man thing. Not because women do not have honor, nor because they can not be treated with honor, but merely because Gorean Honor deals with the relationship of men to other men.
In Major League baseball, they do not talk about how to pitch to women, because there are no women involved in major league baseball. In my Army Infantry squad, I did not talk about how the women should act when we went on patrol, because no women were involved in my Army Infantry Squad.
I don't ask women to help me keep the Men's room clean at my factory, because it is a room for Men only.
This is how I see Honor. It just does not involve women. I maintain the right to have a part of my life that is mine, and that is 100% male. I think I have a right to belong to a Men only club.
If this makes me a bigot and a sexist, so be it.
You know it doesn't make me a sadistic killer, or a nazi.
I will leave the rest of your post without comment. It was well done, but we have beat this thread to death, and it has certainly turned into one more concerned with the singer than the song.
Minxie asked some intelligent questions above, and I answered them, and so off we go into new ground.
And maybe we can learn something from each other. Perhaps, even better manners. :)
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 762
(8/12/01 22:57) Reply
More On Gorean Honour
"Can you have honor and speed down the highway at 65 in a 55? I'd argue you can. Even if you do so purposely. If you are pulled over, can you lie to the police officer about it and have honor? There lies the distinction".
-kwahraw
Distinction?
The distinction is, you are only dishonourable{as a gorean} if you are caught.
I thought goreans were law abiding citisens working to "better"{sic} their community.
If you know it is wrong, why would you even think of breaking the rules?
Personal accountability, taking responsibility etc. etc. they are always on about these things.
But only if you get caught.
You know it is wrong warhawk, why not turn yourself in?
Why wait till you get caught, where's the honour in that?
I suppose breaking laws and then justifying the actions by saying as long as you don't get caught is exactly what makes a gorean gorean.
But this is a man convicted {wrongly?} and dishonourably discharged from the US Airforce academy for breaking rules and orders.
another intepretation
I disagree with your assessment. I believe the point made is that it is not dishonorable to live as one chooses, even if it is at odds with the mandates of society. Dishonor comes from the unwillingness to own up to one's actions.
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