the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 243
(1/16/01 23:38) Reply
What Exactly Constitutes A Slave In Your Eyes.
It appears that there is no consensus, even among those that proclaim gor as their lifestyle.
Is a slave a companion, can you love a slave, be in love with a slave, or is a slave property like cattle. Or is a slave a slave, ie: as in the Atlantic Slave Trade.
There of course is no right or wrong answer, other than certain legal and moral issues that arise from the slave is a slave mentality.
Re: What Exactly Constitutes A Slave In Your Eyes.
[quote]There of course is no right or wrong answer, other than certain legal and moral issues that arise from the slave is a slave mentality.[/quote]
There are no right or wrong answers, period.
Morals are subjective, and laws vary from culture to culture, era to era.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 246
(1/18/01 14:18) Reply
Why Are You Here loco?
Instead of contributing to a discussion about individual perceptions of the word "slave", other than the dictionary meaning, you attempt to get into yet another war of words with me. Haven't you learned yet that you lose at these wars badly.
Subjective: imaginary or partial distorted individual consciousness or perception.
Morals are Objective: external to the mind; actually existing. dealing with outward feelings or opinions.
But if you see morals as objective that explains a lot.
Laws do indeed vary from era to era and culture to culture.
But you live in this era and in an American culture, I hope.
If not, again you are in denial, and living within a delusional fantasy.
Within a certain era and culture there are indeed right or wrong answers answers. You have them all wrong loco.
Hi weenie!
Morals can't be objective, weenie - they vary from culture to culture and era to era.
Morals are cultivated from the majority, and then become standard ethics.
To say morals are objective is to say, "my morals should be your morals," and any rational person would discard that notion because his opinion might be different. His beliefs might be different.
His subjective beliefs.
Here you go saying yet again how anyone who doesn't agree with your standpoint is wrong and stupid.
Wake up, weenie, you don't have a leg to stand on in just about anything.
As for "facts," you haven't provided anything but silly rhetoric from sources no one has heard of.
You should really consider giving up Gor. You obviously don't belong in it. The only reason your board survives is so you can carry your anti-Gor tirade as far as possible. Your only purpose is to slander the S&S. You've made it your goal in life. How sad.
Start up another EZboard and call it "weenies R us n' more," it more suits your pitiful tripe and diatribe.
another opinion
I find myself forced to agree with a portion of Locodarwin's post in regard to morals varying from one culture to another. I've found this to be true within my own life. I do not follow the prevalent religion in this country. Due to this, there are things that I consider quite acceptable that my neighbors might not - yet in no way do I think I am an immoral person. Although slavery is not amongst them (in it's original, nonconsensual definition anyway), the point being made is still valid. For example, I'm sure the little old lady across the street would have been aghast at the Beltane camping-festival I attended last May..... ;-)
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 255
(1/20/01 13:15) Reply
Get A Dictionary loco
Objective: external to the mind; actually existing. dealing with outward feelings or opinions.
Morals are external to thought, they exist. And morals deal with the outward feelings and opinions of individuals.
They {morals} are not subjective, which means; imaginary or partialy distorted individual consciousness or perception. Morals are not imaginary.
You have your definitions misconstrued loco. Unless you see morals as distorted. To see something objectively is to see it from your own point of view. To see something subjectively is to see that P.O.V. from a third person's view.
I see loco's lack of morals subjectively, I see my own strong morals objectively, but enough of grade 10 English. Get a hogh school diploma or one of those joke equivilancy thing you guys give away down there. loco.
Just understand that I do not include you in my diatribe against Sha up there. I have been waiting for people to sort of "break free" of his morality viewpoint for a while now. Looks like you are the first. :o)
As for you, Sha, I can tell you plain and simple that your morals and ethics are not the same as the general population of India, for example, consisting of 1.6 billion people or thereabouts. They don't necessarily agree with your moral codes. Are you going to go to India and tell them they are wrong? Furthermore, most of them are practicing something that more closely resembles a Gorean lifestyle than the lifestyles most people fall into here in the states and Canada.
A lot of people believe it is immoral to eat a cow. The people who believe this outnumber Canada. Sheesh.
Do you eat cow?
Somebody somewhere thinks you're a heathen for it.
Somebody who is excercising his subjective viewpoint, who may, incorrectly like yourself, think it is objective.
People who believe they are morally superior tend to think their viewpoint is objective. You are an example.
Strong religious people might think you are morally inept for having a forum about Gor....eh?
Oh, that's ok, right? They are not as morally superior as you.
Sheesh.
Do you really want to get in a debate about countries? Do you really want to tout the superiority of Canada over the US? Let me know. I'm ready.
Re: I have one, Sha.
People are not cows. Your argument is spurious.
I am talking about human beings, as your Secretary of State says" Slavery is not cultural;it's criminal".
We are not living in India loco.
With your argument which is this; because they do it we can to.
Because people kidnap women and sell them into sexual slavery over there it makes it o.K.?
Because they exploit children into slave labour, that makes it o.k.?
Because they let each other starve or kill one another because people are simply born into the wrong caste {read racism/casteism} that makes it o.k.?
Indian culture is a culture of opression. Is that what you want?
It's greatest hero, one of the worlds greatest leaders, Ghandi fought against these ideas that so resemble gorean lifestyle.
I suppose Ghandi was a "fuckup" too.
Imbecile, yet again you choose a topic that proves gor as wrong. Gor that is as seen as the pure gor of Zeb, Marcus, Bear, and loco.
You're slipping.
I imagine you can't stand having me as a burr in your saddle.
Really, Sha, you're starting to slip badly. Somehow you think you can pass me off with hilarious comments of your supposed superior intellect. So many people are now laughing their asses off at you, Sha, and I know many, many of these people.
It would really suck for you if I called them in to rally with me.
I won't do that, Sha. Gor is harsh, but it isn't always cruel. :o)
Your AOL Gor'n'more is a joke, a fallacy, a hilarious "fuck up" that all can see. Somehow you think people are behind you. You are now seeing they are not. What you do not see is the many eyes who are looking at your words and seeing the stupidity therein.
I am laughing my ass off as well.
Where's your friends? Where's your support?
Come on, people of this board. Don't be fooled by his morally superior attitude. He has viewpoints, nothing more - and yet he touts them as if all people should follow them.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 262
(1/21/01 12:48) Reply
Re: You're slipping.
Where are your friends then, loco.
First there are numerous sites that have what you call "anti- gorean" beliefs.
There are links to four others on this board alone.
Second even on the worldofgor site the administrator, Matster calls bear the "reason why online gor is in the {poor} shape it is". Matser then goes on to say that Bear and his kind only bring hate to the board.
Marcus has posted here he could not defend his words so he ran, just like he ran from his problems over at the Gorean Public Boards and anywhere else where he cannot delete and ban his disenters. Those are hardly the actions of a so-called gorean.
If anyone is slipping loco it is you.
You have wasted many hours in an attempt to show gorean ideals as natural and I, among many others have proven you wrong at every turn.
For example; you choose India to prove that gor and it's ideas are lived today. Yet you neglect to mention the hijra, these are persons who are neither a man nor a woman in Indian culture. A Hijra Community exists they are a religious and social order, explicitly inclusive, but mostly in S. Asia, which admits neither men nor women. Traditionally they work as religious specialists, dancing at births.
All I "tout" loco, is that men are not naturaly superior to females, that slavery is also not natural, that the waek and frail should be protected, and not have" their necks snapped at birth".
That is an idea known as eugenics,an idea that is a foundation of Nazism. Fact.
I bring up the fact of at least five sexes, then you prove me right with your own words. Then you backtrack and say they are "unatural fuckups", showing yet again exactly what kind of person you are.
You bring up India to prove your point, but it again proves mine. Can you not follow up with any of your ideas.
If my ideas of equality sound to you like the ideas of Hitler, then you prove yet again that you are a complete and utter moron.
As for people rushing to my aid, I don't need them when it comes to the like of you, but to mention a few names: Szol, Ray of Ven, Kevien, wren, and minxie, they at least disagree with your idea of eugenics, and others with your sick idea of natural slavery. Oh yes let us not forget to mention your Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, for her
appropos quote.
Your words loco are the words of Adolf Hitler. As are Marcus' when he says that certain undesirable elements should and need to be controlled for the better and improvement of society.
IE, to create a genetically pure race.
Wow, the misconceptions of Job....again?
You are entitled to believe whatever you wish, Sha. :o)
That's the beauty of life. I am entitled to believe as I wish, too - and it can be different from your beliefs.
And Hitler was allowed to believe what he believed.
And India, too.
And I, for one, am glad I have seen very few poeple who matter at all agree with YOU.
My peers have the philosophy, "don't feed the monkeys."
Continue to use the words moron, Hitler, and such to describe me. Since you don't know me, you are therefore stereotyping me into some catagory you've derived from whatever problems you have. I don't know where this stems from - but even now, as I have purposefully ended my biggest parody against you, you can do nothing but utter hate words at me.
What Exactly Constitutes A Slave In Your Eyes
Greetings, Masters,
Greetings, Mistresses,
Greetings, slaves,
The questions were asked: "Is a slave a companion, can you love a slave, be in love with a slave, or is a slave property like cattle. Or is a slave a slave."
sayla would say that a slave is not a companion. Yes, sayla suspects there are men and women who love their slaves. There seems no stronger bond than that found in the midst of a consensual slavery relationship. A slave is indeed property similar to cattle in that she is owned in totality, however, she has a whole lot more to offer than a cow does (smiles). The simplest and most clear definition is that a slave is a slave. The word she has chosen to define herself, and others have chosen to acknowledge.
Many people get hung up on the term, "slave", as it relates to slavery in history which was not consensual, or to illegal slavery that still exists in parts of our world. In fact, forced slavery is still legal in certain parts of the world. The consensual slavery of those who choose to live within a philosophy they found written by Dr. Lange cannot be fairly compared to any of these other non-consensual forms of slavery.
Morality? We each have our own. It is a freedom we have in the United States. Right to choice as long as we live within the laws of our cities and states. Is abortion moral? Morality becomes an issue of right and wrong, what else could it be, how else is it defined, but as a standard of right and wrong. Can a man call his wife a slave? It is not illegal for him to do so. Can a woman call herself a man's slave? It is not against the law to do so. It is a choice. Morality is subjective in that what is right for one person may be wrong for another.
Society holds us to one moral standard, however, there are many levels of morality. While abortion is legal would we believe that society finds it to be moral? sayla hardly thinks so. Most churches find it highly immoral, and yet, the church is well within the law (the same law that guarantees us freedom of religion). The right to choose. Allowing us to select, subjectively, our own morality within certain guidelines.
Re: What Exactly Constitutes A Slave In Your Eyes
hello Sayla, and whoever else may be reading...
The word 'slave' already had a definition long before John Lange wrote his books... and therein lies part of the dilemma some people face when confronted with this subject. Using terminology that already has a long standing, and quite unpleasant, connotation is bound to cause a problem. The women in the books were indeed slaves in that they could not say, "Hey, this really sucks.... I'm outta here!" if they found their experiences a bit less than wonderfully fulfilling - and of couse, for the sake of the stories, they always ended up loving their slavery.(LMAO) Perhaps if those who follow Norman's philosophies were to come up with a different way to describe this phenomena it would eliminate a lot of misunderstandings.
Re: For Once And For All
There are slaves in America. Drive down any Georgia highway and watch the men and women in chains working hard at the hands of forceful task masters. These folks ain't volenteers.
Slave and slavery has many definitions, only one which relates to forced bondage. If that definition is used, as the only definition, then it is a person or the condition of a person who has no choice or control of his actions and involentarilly submits to the will of another. In this context, there are slaves to their jobs, slaves to their addictions, slaves to their desires, slaves to their possesions, and on and on. By this definition, anytime you do something you don't want to based on someone elses will due to force, be that force a lost job, money, possesions, divorce, or any number of other forces also known as pressure, then you will be ultimately a slave to that force. If this were not the case, I contend retirement wouldnt be as good looking after 20 yrs of slaving. If this were not the case, I contend that many people wouldn't try to find the ideal job that encompasses their hobbies. I also contend that many folks would try so hard to work for themselves, instead of working for others. Note the work for others part.
X-man, you say slavey as it applies in the archaic text, consensual slavery is the same thing in all regards except, the slave has one last choice reserved to her after the collaring. That is to admit that they were not a slave and to admit they lived a lie, and in that failure, beg release. The only other way it differs from archaic slavery, is that a Master cannot go to the courthouse and register his possesion.
Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won.
--Louisa May Alcott--
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 276
(1/24/01 14:28) Reply
Re: For Once And For All
First if that is the only difference you see between consensual and non consensual slavery Ndn you need a wake up call.
Slaves real slaves did everything they could to escape, they did not want to be slaves. They were staked down, locked up, and branded.
They did not recieve this brand out of some sense of devotion to their slave-drivers {the real term to use of a slave owner}, they were branded because the slave-drivers knew that the men, women, and children would do anything to ecsape captive non-consensual slavery.
They were branded to show identity, so they could be returned after they ran away.
These person did not have the ability to wake up and say they no longer wanted to be a slave, Ndn, your ignorance of your past is incredible. They did not want to be slaves, Ndn.
As for the assumed slaves, the prisoners you mention, they still have human rights. Slaves do not. Slaves were / are not seen as human beings by Goreans, Ndn. Tell your girlfriend, daughter, ex wife{?}, slave, she's not a human being. Stand up and pronounce your beliefs at the next family dinner and the next coffee break at work.
Re: For Once And For All
She knows well she is not my wife or girlfriend but slave. Sometimes it bugs her, as one would figure. But, she knows what she is to me, and accepts it. Stop using your hyperbolies and shit, x-man. They show your ignorance. My knowledge of history goes back as far as yours, with special emphesis on 1500BC to the 11th millinium BC. And you don't want to get me started on that. You have no desire to understand, and especially no desire to allow individual freedoms of expression. So, that said, put it in yer pipe and choke on it.
When debating cats and dogs, x-man, leave the cows in the barn.
Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won.
--Louisa May Alcott--
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 279
(1/24/01 19:19) Reply
Re: For Once And For All
You have shown your knowledge Ndn, your lack of it.
I love how you never answer the questions people direct to you.
Stop using the explanation of "its natural, Lange says so", and start providing evidence.
As for the rest of your post, all I can say is, huh?
Re: For Once And For All
I have never said Lange said so, nor have I said he was some god. I have said I agree with many of his observations.
See my post to the main forum here, for my definitive opinion. The PC one, and the actual raw one.
Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won.
--Louisa May Alcott--
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