Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
The Temple of Mondain are now considered our enemies. An outline will be drawn up recognizing the area of Dracona and the limited area within the Desert of Compassion Lost that will be known as Mondain's Graveyard. Any Mondainites found within the boundaries of Dracona are to be asked to leave immediately. If they fail to do so, they are to be executed summarily for crimes against Dracona.
This remains an RP situation, meaning you do not loot, you do not res-kill, if you are killed, you return, loot your corpse, remain in your death robe, and leave the area. Should they choose to follow the path of Moraelin, Raal and the third whose name fails my mind... should they do as those three did last eve and simply return immediately to any battle, leave the area, and let me know via this message board, IRC, or ICQ. Should this happen with frequence, the respect of this being an RP situation will be removed, and ToM will be considered no better than B4M.
Moraelin sat before the hearth in his home near Dragon's Bay, examining the missives before him. The fire crackled softly as a cool evening breeze blew in off the water. Despite the seriousness of recent events, he was forced to chuckle inwardly at the news.
His nephew, Arrick Caldane, one time Priest of the Temple of Mondain, sat nearby tending to his armor. Glancing upwards, he noticed the smirk that now appeared on his uncle's face...
"What news?"
Moraelin looked up from the papers and grinned at his nephew. "The same as always. The 'righteous' have failed and seek to place blame. Never do they think to look within, but instead seek out others to paint the villain for their own shortcomings."
Raising a curious eyebrow, Arrick encouraged his uncle to explain further.
"Ahhh, forgive me nephew, I had forgotten that you were not with us last eve. Allow me to elaborate..."
"At the behest of our Lord Mordain, the followers of Mondain gathered at the Temple to prepare for our journey to Nujel'M. The Dragon Knight, EdGuardo, was to be executed and we would stand in attendance to observe the proceedings. It was decided that should enemies of the Temple arrive to disrupt the execution, they would be dealt with. Our allies from the Cult of the Azure Dragons however, were to be given quarter provided that they were willing to afford us the same courtesy. The execution proceeded without interference, and we were in fact preparing to depart when word came that enemies of the Temple had arrived on the island including forces from the Order of the Silver Serpent, the Highland Guard, the Royal Knights of Redemption, and others. Of course we responded to their presence, for they have time and again proven their intentions towards those who would follow Mondain's teachings. The battle was furious, and raged throughout the streets of Nujel'M. Members of the Cult of the Azure Dragons were present as well, but they were ignored as we focused our attacks upon our known enemies."
"Then wherein lies the confusion, Uncle?", questioned Arrick.
"Well as I said, the Cult was ignored for a time. That is, until they decided that our very presence made us their enemy as well."
"They attacked?"
Moraelin grinned again, "Don't tell me you are surprised my boy. Aye they attacked. While one of our own was engaged with the Highland Guard, members of the Cult attacked him, and he was barely able to fall back in time to escape their assault. Fortunately, he was able to bring the news to us, of the threat the Cult had become, and we responded in kind."
Shaking his head in resignation, Arrick finished, "And now the Cult seeks to place the blame for this betrayal upon the Temple." He had seen it happen time and time again in days past. Always the Temple was made out to be the deceiver, the beguiler. Never did any look beyond their pre-conceptions about Mondains followers, or seek to find the truth of things, when it was so easy to simply cast blame without another thought.
"Aye Arrick, they seek to blame us." Moraelin replied.
"And what word from Lord Mordain?"
"None yet. Though as you well know, this is not the first time that one of our 'allies' has been so ready to discard the progress we have made together. Many have come to claim venegance upon the Temple and the followers of Mondain, yet still we stand. If the Cult of the Azure Dragons wishes to make us their enemy to hide thier own faults, then so be it. We will be ready, and they are fools if they think that exacting thier 'revenge' will be an easy task."
Arrick found himself rememebering the days that he too had fought in defense of the Temple. "The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh Uncle."
"Heh, aye Arrick, that they do. That they do."
-----------------------------------
Moraelin [ToM]
***OOC: I have no idea why it is that you think either Raal or myself returned to the battle after our deaths, but I would ceratinly like to hear how you have come to this conclusion.
I do not know the circumstances of Raal's death, but I know that following it, he could be found sitting astride his horse, in his death robe next to the 'checkerboard' in Nujel'M. I know this as I passed him several times while fighting. Never once was he absent or in anything but his deathrobe. So unless he ran off everytime I was out of sight, it doesn't seem like he returned to the battle.
As for myself, I died once during the evening. I was engaged 1 on 1 with yulack the lost of H<G, while Cazpen, also of H<G, looked on without interfering. Verminaard attacked and he and yulack sent me to that irritating greyness, heh. I was ressurected by my guildmate, BloxXas of ToM, retrieved my llama and my belongings, and remained in my deathrobe. In all honesty, I was under the impression that the 15 minute rules was in effect, but was informed via IRC that it was a one-death-and-your-gone rule instead. This turned out to be fine by me, as we (meaning ToM) left less than 10 minutes after my death.
If you'd care to explain your claims, I would certainly appreciate it, as I certainly don't like having my honor brought into question without cause. I will check this thread, or you may contact me via IRC (dom or cadpublic channels) or ICQ ( 56969568 ) .
Thanks,
Mor's boss.***
Edited by: Moraelin ToM at: 11/20/01 6:55:33 pm
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I will attempt to provide you with a journal log from the member of the Cult who bears witness to the fact that three guild members, Raal, Iris, and yourself, were killed and later seen running around in battle. I do not know for certain if he has journal saving on, but I will attempt to do so.
If these accusations prove false, I will gladly issue official apology, but above and beyond that issue, the Temple of Mondain, if truly an ally of the Cult, should not have been present at that execution if only out of respect of the fact that we'd be there. In fact, I find it odd that the Temple of Mondain knew precisely where the execution was happening, but did not once lend notice to the Cult (which was QUITE publicly struggling to decide where the execution would take place). Basically, it comes to this... yes, we had an issue the other night where some CAD jumped in at the behest of some guild allied to or assisting OSS, but Mordain and I were speaking on the matter, and I told him I would let him know as soon as decision had been made. Showing up at a battle where there are a ton of oranges on both sides makes yourself an unfortunate target (which is why I prefer not to war allies... it only makes things more difficult), and I know not whether the first blow was landed on purpose or by accident. The fact that you state we were granted accord states pretty clearly that you were expecting the attack to occur.
On an entirely separate note, the fact that Spider jumped from ToM to join the Minax faction so he could whack at Nero makes me sick. I would surely hope that ToM does not condone such nonesense irregardless of this (and no, one member had no affect on this decision).
Let me spell it out in terms from the point of view of my character, which is what all of the decisions were based upon, as well as the tale... You were at the execution of a friend, and fought those who joined us to free him. You cannot expect that we would stand idly by and let those who were there to aid us die, and your standing up against those who came in his defense would be quite a blow to ANY alliance.
The post here was because NEMESIS doesn't have access to restructure the website as of yet, and couldn't change the status of your guild, so he was clarifying the decision. He was also spelling out quite clearly that irregardless of any hard feelings (I don't know if there are any or not), that ToM was to remain treated as an RP guild... but you must understand that this is the second time we've heard of ToM blatantly disregarding the death robe rule, so we're also going to play it safe with regards to what happens in the future.
As I say, if these reports prove untrue, I'll gladly and happily publicy prostrate myself and apologize profusely. In either event, the alliance is still disolved simply because as I say, from an IC standpoint, your presence at the execution pretty much ended it. I hope this all makes some sort of sense. And while I know some make decisions based solely on IC and OOC influences, I hope you can trust that I made the alliance decision based solely on IC impressions from what happened.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I haven't a log to present, but I do have the word of a trusted friend that he was attacked by "dead" people. I'm sorry, but you tend to notice who is attacking you, and he kept track of what was going on.
I'm willing to concede that maybe someone from another guild was running around with a name similar to yours and perhaps he got confused, but Raal and Iris aren't really confusing names to remember.
And I do recall seeing Raal in the battle much later than he could have been if Verminard truly killed him as early as he was supposedly out of it.
Anyhow, not a big deal in any regards as like Nemesis says, that kind of stuff only lends to determine how long ToM remains treated as an RP guild. Hopefully we can all work to avoid this stuff, but if things are going to continue on a "We never make mistakes, this stuff never happens in our guild" trend and yet reports continue to roll in, I'm sorry, but ToM's place as an RP guild in our eyes is going to swiftly dim. I understand mistakes. I don't understand not owning up to them if they happen. But again, this has zip to do with alliance/war. That's Nem's job now.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
Well let me just make a few points then:
1 - ToM did NOT know where EdGuardo was being held until shortly before the execution. Raal and Myself had in fact assumed it was fire island, and searched there first. Later, as the other members of the Temple arrived, we returned to Nujel'M and found that he was in fact being held there.
2 - Spider is not considered a member of ToM, and did not suddenly join factions so that he could attack Nero. He has been in factions fr some time testing out a new template. He feels factions gives him the greatest opportunity for combat to test out his characters abilities in battle.
3 - We were at the execution of an enemy of the Temple. The fact that CAD considers him a friend is unfortunate, but you can't expect our two guilds to always have common opinions on all matters.
4 - The excuse that "Showing up at a battle where there are a ton of oranges on both sides makes yourself an unfortunate target" is weak at best. Every person was permanently flagged with their name and guild title above their heads. It only takes a moment to look. If ToM can do it and avoid attacking CAD or our other allies, I would expect CAD capable of doing the same.
5 - Your information on Raal is incorrect. Aside from the fact that he was so badly lagged that he could barely move, let alone fight, I know (through my own eyes) and have again confirmed with him that he remained in his deathrobe near the checkerboard for the majority of the evening (he did move around a bit - banking, etc, but did not engage in combat).
6 - If Verminaard is your 'trusted friend' supplying you with this information, I will simply say that it would appear that HE was the one to first attack a member of the Temple unprovoked (save by our presence).
You do not know me, so I can't imagine why you would take my word over one of your own, but these are the facts as I know them to be.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
On a side note,
Raticker of ToM DID try to join your party as it left Serpent's Hold. That is, to observe the evening's proceedings peacefully as a member of the force being led by CAD (everyone WAS supposedly invited after all).
Unfortunately, Raticker was killed for his efforts ... twice as I understand it.
I do not bear any grudge against those who killed him as he should, and I'm sure did, expect it. There were after all, members from several guilds that we are pitted against, present in Serpent's Hold.
That being the case, it shouldn't be any wonder that we travelled to the site of EdGuardo's execution of our own accord. It was a major event, and one that the Temple was determined to attend.
I only say this to help explain the Temple's presence at the execution, and at least part of the reason we chose to travel there on our own.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
Look, we can argue this all day... again, from an IC point of view, the fact that you attacked those who were coming to aid in the rescue of Edguardo is by and far enough to sever the alliance. You think it is unreasonable for us to have expected that you not attend the execution, but from the mouth of your very leader (and I DO have my own journal to provide as evidence), Mordain was forgoing the Temple's claim to execution of Edguardo on behalf of the Cult.
Considering you were skulking around Serp's Hold tells me quite well you knew we were going to be there and what was going on. You can profess the innocence of the Temple through any means whatsoever including misdirection, the fact remains, you're not innocent of in-game actions. Period.
As far as Raal goes... sorry, not buying it. Maybe he too thought the event was on the fifteen minute timer, but he most definitely was out of death robe well after the timing of his death. I am certain he was probably put back in it swiftly by one group or another (not being an ass, just hear he had a REALLY bad connection that night, and without the ability to move, it's damned hard to defend ones self).
My excuse of you being there and being orange is as valid as anything else said. I do not know whether the first blow was landed on purpose or accident... I DO know that if you as an orange were attacking a friend (who was blue), I wouldn't have wasted the effort to see who it was who was doing the killing.
If you cannot see that being there was the wrong thing to do to preserve this alliance, then that is simply something you'll have to work out for yourself, because as I've said before, the Temple can't just wave its magic fingers, use words like "We didn't attack until they attacked us," and hope that they've exhonorated themselves of all blame.
But hey... how's it different from normal? I'm noticing a trend here... ToM does no wrong.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I don't recall saying that ToM does no wrong.
I'm simply pointing out that there are TWO guilds involved in what was our alliance. Neither is completely innocent, but I don't see CAD accepting any responsibility either.
Having said that, if you think I will allow you to drag the name of the Temple (or my own for that matter) through the mud without response, you are sorely mistaken.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
Accepting what responsibility? For terminating the alliance? I'm pretty sure we're taking responsibility for that. For having attacked you? Yes, we did. If you don't understand why, tough. Sorry, but if this is your idea of an alliance, it's pretty one-sided. Tell you what though... I'll continue this discussion tonight from home when I present to you the logfile from my personal journal where Mordain says he will forgoe wanting to see Edguardo executed to favor the alliance.
It seems odd to me that if the Temple were not going to be pursuing his execution that they'd show up to see him executed.
But I'm guessing that makes absolutely no sense to you. Apparently we should take the blame for you being there and for attacking our allies who assisted us that night, right?
As far as Raticker being attacked in Serp's Hold, if I had been told he was coming, I would have made efforts to tell those who have grudges with ToM to put them aside. I did the night that Mordain and I were in the HCD tower... but when things went south, I also explained to both sides that night that I wasn't getting involved. Ego and temper flared that night, and I did exactly as I said I would... stayed out of it on both sides. If I had some clue as to what was going on, I'd have certainly told them to drop back and let him assist.
Sorry... I'm not psychic.
Raal ToM Registered User
Posts: 1
(11/21/01 12:22 pm) Reply
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I dont really wish to prolong this argument any further, but I will set the record straight on what I did.
I was killed in short order by Verminaard after a short stint attacking Nero. I was resurected, although I cannot remember who did this. I walked back to my body, picked up my stuff, remounted my steed and left my deathrobe on.
Yes, I did wander around the city of Nejulem a little bit, to try and see some of the action. I probably could have been seen at the bank (I even ressurected someone there). But I then went back to the checkerboard because I couldnt actually find any of the fighting. I stayed on the checkboard almost the whole night, exept when I went over to the Guotine to take one last look at Ed. I even got myself a sweet little tricorner hat to remind myself of Ed.
I never cast another spell of offence after I died nor did I change out of my deathrobe, I never died a second time either. In fact, I didnt even take off my deathrobe untill I got back to the Temple. While I have no way to prove this, I hope you can take my word. I enjoy these mass battles and do my best to abide by the rules. I dont know who said that I reentered battle, but I am sure it is easy to confuse what is happeining in such a chaotic situation.
Again, I know we will never be able to solve this, but I like to think that I am trusted by my fellow players.
Raal of ToM
Edited by: Raal ToM at: 11/21/01 2:32:21 pm
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I guess that leaves Iris? All I know for certain is that one of the three mentioned was directly involved in Verminard's death. After they were dead. I'll go so far as to concede that maybe we just saw people running around after they were dead, but I do know that Verminard wasn't hallucinating the attack when he was finally killed.
But I digress... this is still a WAY OFF subject over something that was stated by Nemesis in regards to what would happen if this all continued to happen. It's a simple equation. If we continue to receive reports like this, we'll eventually reach a point where we won't look at you all as roleplayers. We currently still do, and it's already been stressed to those involved that they are not to go around looting and randomly killing just to prove points or get vengeance.
The post was simply something intended for the viewers of this board who belong to CAD, but perhaps I should put up a private board so that in the future, this stuff doesn't get so blown out of proportion.
The real issue, and the only one I'm even remotely concerned with right now, is the alliance. And I think just about all's been said on that which can be said.
"I guess that leaves Iris? All I know for certain is that one of the three mentioned
was directly involved in Verminard's death. After they were dead. I'll go so far as to
concede that maybe we just saw people running around after they were dead, but I
do know that Verminard wasn't hallucinating the attack when he was finally killed."
This sounds more like a statment of somone who is mad because they were killed and their ego is a little to big to let go but if Im wrong please correct me. However to clear things up a bit RedThorne and Myself were the ones to kill Verminard it was my explosion that killed him. Iris was on screen I do admit that because she was looting her body still and Raal was helping her (he has previously ressed her). Verm however died to an arrow hit, and two explosions and an MB all due to RedThorne and myself. If this is an ego thing I will be happy to stand at target for him so he may get it off his chest. If this is not the case then why is it that CAD is the only one complaining about this? H>G and ToM had a similar problem durring the same battle when one of H>G's re entered the battle after death but you do not see this needless complaining and bitching going on. Both sides made their peace and it was really no big deal. But CAD seems to be drawing this out. Im curious as to why.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
You're right, Mordain. It's an ego thing. Verminard is a liar and an egotist. I'm glad you visited to clear this all up for me.
Anyway, can we drop this portion of the arguement? I've already made it clear (and if you re-read NEMESIS' post), the issue is that if this CONTINUES to be an issue, we'll have problems with it. But that you are to be treated as an RP guild until otherwise noted.
Okay? I mean for crying out loud, Nem even said that if issues were to arise, NOT to deal with them then and there, but instead to inform him so that he could make decision on it. Geez. The larger issue has ALWAYS been the alliance, and you have yet to acknowledge that we have reason to feel betrayed.
Edited by: RaDian FlGith at: 11/21/01 4:49:01 pm
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
Oy....I never took you for one who would jump to conclusions. It appears this will unfortunatly not have a mature end to it because you are unwilling to see things from a different persepctive and I will respect that of you. It is however a shame that you are unwilling to take other perspectives and facts of events that occured from others not of your own guild but again I respect your descision. I am sorry this could not be worked out in a better way and submit to youre war efforts. Next time we meet it will be on the battle field....
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
How dare you play the "maturity" card, Mordain. Do you NOT remember having said to me on the roof of the HCD tower that you would NOT interfere in Ed's rescue? That while you could not assist because of his crimes against your guild that you would not interfere either? Do you not see how attacking the forces allied to us in Ed's rescue is interfering in the rescue effort? If we had won, we would have at least been afforded the opportunity to claim Ed's remains. I won't go so far as to say we would have won if your guild had not been there, because I do not know that... the tide could have gone either way. But your presence certainly tipped the balance in the favor of the Empire. I understand you think you're justified, but I don't understand why you don't see it as a problem.
You know what, Mord? After I present the logfiles this evening, I'm simply going to terminate the war with you and I suggest you do the same. I'm not even willing to deal with you on any front after this if you're unwilling to see or discuss realistically what went wrong. It's terribly nice that you're attempting to shift the entire blame of everything onto CAD even after you swore you would not get involved. But I guess that's just how it will be. You'll accuse my members of being egotists, all the while sitting back and telling your guild members I'm off my rocker and that now supposedly you and I often talked about this and that you always told me I was asking unfair things of you.
I guess I halucinated your promise of non-interference. Silly me.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
And sorry, yes, I noticed I edited my post after you posted... I hadn't refreshed yet. I'm not trying to hide what I said, I was simply trying to word it better. My apologies.
Re: Temple of Mondain now considered enemies
I think your misunderstanding my arguement with you RaDian I am NOT shifting the blame anywhere. Frankly right now I dont care where the blame lays I just want this to be resolved so we can get out of this stupid, pathetic, immature flame war we got going on and get back to what really matters and thats RPing a fun game. If you wish to terminate the war that is your choice I just want to get back to what matters to me in UO and thats having fun and RPing.
Opinion
Well...from my point of view...This was ToM's attempt to get revenge on OSS/HCD for the tower incident in which they were killed and the seven or so times they died in serps before....
If you truly wanted to hold this alliance you would not have been at the execution
It was quite obvious CAD was looking for Ed and they would be with OSS/HCD looking for me..Infact CAD was leading the hunt and i heard it from mord himself that they were there for revenge against oss (and to see me die!! hehe)
So is CAD at fault? No I dont see CAD at fault here for the break of the alliance it was YOUR fault for wanting revenge when you knew CAD was going to be there and out of all the EOA there you could not expect them to not attack your eight members and let you kill the people they were with to help ed is the stupidest thing i have ever heard
Re: Opinion
Well in that respect yes I can see what you mean....So Im willing to submit that by being there ToM did break the alliance but at the same time I dident want to see it thrown away as easily as it was going to be. However my main problem isent really the IN GAME stuff really and I said before that I would be willing to submit to the war and take responsibility for our actions at NuJelm durring your execution as long as things were seen in our perspective. What im irked about is the fact that my members are being called liers straight out by certain people which I cannot and will not believe and on the same tolken I cant ask RaDian to believe that his members are also lieing to him because that would be wrong. However I know what I saw and I am hearing things that I KNOW for a fact are just not true whether it be a misjudgement or perhaps mistaken identity I dont know. Yes we did know CAD was going to be there but no we really dident have any idea that they would honestly attack us as they dident get involved durring the HCD Tower Incodent and after talking to RaDian the night before about the SH incodent and was told that he would find out what was going on I figured we were at a crossroad and dident really expect any further attacks in NuJelm. A tactical error on my part which I will have to live with.
I hate to argue this further, but honestly, I want you to understand that I am not just idly making things up as we go along. You've said that you made it clear to me I was asking unfair things...
You've also said that Nemesis attacked Iris first. If you will view the entirety of Nemesis' log from the point attack began to the point that he died, you will see that not only did Iris attack first minutes before you and she killed him, but also that she attacked him first (and then he immediately attacked Blox Xas as well).
I will admit that the journal does not show Raal attacking, and I do not believe it shows Moraelin at all, or few times if that. If you truly believe that I would make @#%$ up just to get your attention, I would not. I simply wanted an understanding as to why we arrived at the point we are now.
Mistakes happen, Mord. I already admit that one of our members had to be forced into a death robe via ICQ because he wasn't aware of the rule, but he was dealt with right there, he apologized, and immediately got out of the way and stood in his death robe.
I do not have other logs, and I'm willing to accept that maybe Moraelin and Raal and whomever else were mistaken identity. I have my doubts, but I'm not going to argue that issue anymore as I have no proof. However, I do have proof on the two issues that I hold most important, and I think it's about time you acknowledge what happened truly.
Edited by: RaDian FlGith at: 11/21/01 11:31:49 pm
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