Philosophy is It?
If one separates the slavery issue from that corpus of ideas collectively thought as the Gorean philosophy, what does one have left that isn’t better explained, more fully developed elsewhere by writers such as Ayn Rand and Friedrich Nietzsche, sciences (or pseudo-sciences, as the case may be) like eugenics and philosophical schools in the manner of relativism?
Not that any of these other ideologies have any validity from my perspective, mind you, but I’m just wondering: If one must cleave to such points-of-view, why must they be in the guise of pulp fiction rather than serious intellectual analyses?
What has happened with so called Gorean philosophy is really quite fascinating.
There are hoards of people who will state unequivocally that they follow a Gorean Philosophy, that they are *actual Gorean men and women.*
To begin with I felt that they must be completely unbalanced for making such a claim, but I have been looking at this so called online Gorean community
since it began, and I have learnt that actually most Goreans do not base their lifestyle on the Gorean novels at all.
The men in the novels were bullies, who used physical strength to achieve what they wanted.
Online Goreans will tell you that they do not need to use anything other than the force of their magnificent manly personalities.
The slaves in the novels are sluts desperate for a mans touch.
Online Gorean men despise any girl who makes such needs known and will not interact with her.
The men in the novels used extreme torture, mental and physical to control women.
Online Goreans view men who do this with the same concern *normal* people would.
The men in the books raped.
Online Goreans do not think rape is OK.
The men in the books raided, robbed, pillaged and took what they wanted by force.
Online Goreans even scorn the swapping of John Norman’s writings, they so respect copyright and ownership.
The Free Women in the books were either frigid, or extremely annoying as they taunted the men.
The Free women online try to portray themselves as graceful and thoughtful.
The Free Women in the books are for the most part extremely cruel to slaves.
The Free Women online are kind, and supportive of slaves, chatting to them and offering their *wise* counsel.
The slaves in the books hate and greatly fear Free Women.
The slaves online respect and often have friendships with Free Women.
The men in the books enjoy kinky and diverse sex. They consider it normal, and expect such needs to be catered for. They indulge freely wherever they might be with no shame.
Gorean men online boast of only one thing regarding sex, and that is how vanilla their needs are when compared with the rest of the BDSM community.
The characters in the books believe in every person for themselves and have no truck with notions like social security.
The characters online will share heartening stories of how a child was helped by a good teacher, or how a rape victim found support, or how a disabled man was able to live independently due to some new invention.
The characters in the books allow children to witness and become involved in their activities, including those of a sexual nature.
Online characters state how they believe in the protection of children and take pains to only interact with adults.
The age of *consent* i.e. the age that a man can rape a girl in the Gor books is about fifteen.
Online Goreans insist their slaves must be eighteen or older.
On the planet Gor, the institution of slavery is accepted as meritorious and right.
Earthly Goreans believe it must be a consenting situation.
In the fiction kidnap is considered a good means of acquiring slaves.
Factual Goreans do not think it’s such a good idea.
Men in the books are generally fit and with a marvellous psysique. Wonderful warriors, with the kind of looks that send a girl to dreamland.
Men who interact online are often fat, bald, bespectacled and dress like British Tory M.P.s
Girls in the books are generally beautiful. (As perceived by western standards)
Girls who interact online usually aren’t. (As perceived by western standards)
The enormous anomalies between what is written in those books, and the beliefs and practices of those who say they take a lifestyle philosophy from them is astonishing
What is more interesting is how hostile, and furious online Goreans become when you point this out.
They consider all such suggestions as an attack upon them as individuals and go to great lengths to then personally injure and discredit rather than debate.
Goreanism is in their minds something fine, upstanding, honourable and an agreed code of living which is above the standards of the rest of humanity.
(This is despite the fact that they do not have an agreed code, and squabble endlessly about all sort of puerile things.)
Having said all the above, their are a small but significant group of Goreans, who actually *do* want things to be as they are in the books. And they
unfortunately have had much influence on others.
They have written vast amounts about the subject, and a lot of it is still available in various places on the Internet.
Much of it they have removed, because others noted it and opened up the debate as to what kind of ideology they were advocating.
At present, many of those who were the most vociferous in wishing nazi revolution in our world are silent.
But those who care have archived their words, and many are vigilant for their return. They never stay off the Internet for long.....
Datapanik, you said......
"If one separates the slavery issue from that corpus of ideas collectively thought as the Gorean philosophy, what does one have left that isn’t better explained, more fully developed elsewhere by writers such as Ayn Rand and Friedrich Nietzsche, sciences (or pseudo-sciences, as the case may be) like eugenics and philosophical schools in the manner of relativism?"
Utterly nothing. They are not exclusive, never were exclusive and never will be exclusive in their ideals - if, as you suggest, they separate the slavery issue.
They're frauds. I thought pretty much everyone had figured that out since the big Gorean rush was on a few years back. Every man was "Gorean," even though they didn't know it until the moment they came online (no pun intended but ended up being a good one, eh?)...and every female was a slave, although she didn't know it until the moment she interacted online. Such introspection! Such self-revelation! ~retches~
Most of them are gone now. I can't say that I'm surprised.
Re: Datapanik, you said......
If you ask me, the so-called Gorean philosophy is just nothing but a (comic book) validation for insecure men who feel threatened by the halting—yet continuing—advances of the women’s rights effort. Furthermore, it must provide a highly reassuring thought mechanism for certain timid women who refuse to step up to the plate and assume responsibility for their collective potential. Sad, it is; sad to the extreme. On a more fundamental level, I cannot see the Gorean worldview as anything more than a colorful thematic variation of alternate sexual pursuits.
It’s heartening to see the self-proclaimed Gorean lifestylers turn tail and run from the Internet. It only seems to bear out what I’ve always believed about them: that, in the final analysis, they’re cowards who cannot bear to live in a heterogenous society.
Many, many read here. I know because of the mail I receive, and words shared here have had impact.
Datapanik,
Gorean Philosophy is mostly a BDSM practice, and good luck to people seeking joy in their sex lives.
However, for some it was something more than that. They were using the very powerful sexual urges of people to recruit them to something that needed to be challenged.
It was. And the challenges have worked.
I think in a very big part because of this forum. Most of the others are gone, and you could never debate for long any where else. Opposing view points were always banned.
Try posting on the Gorean Public Boards, probably the last bastion of Gorean Philosophy, and see how long you last.
Re: Just BDSM.
Been there, done it… and I’ve been banned no less than three times, without an explanation in two cases or any real sense of why the ban was instituted. Chalk it up to a singular intolerance for any point of view at variance with “Gorean orthodoxy,” no matter how free of insult it may be, thoughtful and sincerely curious in nature, or genuinely intellectual in intent. My personal experience seems to indicate that self-styled Goreans are—as often as not—an extraordinarily thin-skinned group, not unlike certain participants of various Star Trek forums to which I’ve contributed (alas, victims of their own brand of orthodoxy) or a significant number of music fans on the Internet.
However, one might look at it this way: when you endeavor to promote an ideology which has been, and continues to be almost entirely discredited by both scientific and sociological research, perhaps a certain amount of defensive paranoia is to be expected. It must be hard to be a Gorean in the 21st Century western world. It must be a real pain to continually argue against social progress and the furtherance of human intellectual evolvement when everyone else seems to intent on pursuing it. I imagine it’s much like the poor, besieged Flat Earth Society who can’t seem to get anyone to take their pronouncements seriously anymore. Especially when they just know those photographs from space have been doctored.
Yesterday, some Gorean stated that I’m participating in a losing battle against Gor. That statement might have some force to it if not for the fact that, a few weeks ago, I landed on a page listing several dozen Gorean sites, and all but four were inactive. No, any battle one might wage against Gor is hardly a losing one. In fact, it would seem no one really has to wage a battle of all. Gor is presumably dying of its own inertia, most likely because it’s biggest core of followers are finally graduating from high school and moving on with their lives.
XSha Tell the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1048
(11/23/02 1:06) Reply
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1076
(5/13/03 1:10) Reply
Run Away, Run Away
Typical pathetic "gorean" behaviour is see as follows:
Just stumbled over this, this "gorean" won't respond here but instead runs away like a coward, like a cockroach and then makes comments behind said board and person's back.
How honourable, how very "gorean", how ver pathetic.
From: pub8.ezboard.com/fprisonm...=210.topic
Replies to other boards...II
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The second of two posts is a reply to a board I am UNWILLING to respond. This commentary can be found at
pub1.ezboard.com/faolgora...=173.topic
I could reply there, but it is the tired old "feed the monkeys" thing. What surpises [sic] me about this commentary is this. For some time now this person has been trying to convince people that "Goreans" are evil. But when Goreans take a moment to explain their views, and to me it appears that the answers are morally and ethically correct, she condemns them. These cant [sic] be Gorean answers, Goreans are supposed to be monsters!
I think her commentary made Goreans look good. Im sure she would have difficulty agreeing to disagree.
So, if by pointing this out on this board, rather than on another board, opens me up to criticism, so be it. If nobody gives a crap, so be it. i just thought it was something to ponder.
I wish you well,
Ron
Serene Hellspont
Registered User
(11/4/02 2:44:26 am)
Reply Epic Posts
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Tal Ron !
*chuckles* I remember minxie and her tirades, and how painfully paitent[sic] Marcus was in dissecting her posts. It certainly was interesting seeing her posting again, still, and yet again ...
I was pleasently[sic] surprised to see Marcus quoted on the WM board .. it seemed a great irony to see His words on Our wall. I posted to the effect that Gor has come full circle for me, in one of perhaps many cycles.
When I "learned" Gor, it was Marcus's essays and writings that opened up my mind to the depth that one could BE Gorean. I am not sure how He would feel about being quoted, but I was glad to see His words survive.
As I understand it, Marcus .. Bear .. Zeb and now Locodarwin have gone onto yet another cycle of what I think Gor "is" .. They are Living it. *smiles* It never ceases to facinate [sic] Me how real life entwines so deeply in what some look at as "role play".
*points* The House of Lara is a perfect example! *chuckles*
I wish You and Yours well indeed
A Serene Trish
.................................................................................................
Ethical?
Saying that you refuse to make commentary and then running away as the coward that you are, that all "goreans" are (only a coward would enslave another human being) to an obscure board only to continue your commentary behind a person's back.
Yes how very ethical, how very "gorean".
"Made goreans look good", (capital G removed by me) now that is one of the funniest things I have ever read.
Funny that was.
What is this nonsense by the second poster refering to Marcus as "He" etc., does she feel that he is a deity?
Now I have seen everything.
Seek help, quickly.
Gor is dead, I am glad that I had the opportunity to stomp a few cockroaches along the way. Pest control, they spread disease afterall; diseased minds.
My boots are safely tucked away in the closet though just in case, but they are getting so dusty.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1077
(5/13/03 23:55) Reply
Run Away, Run Away
Actually this has nothing to do with me, I simply found the post yesterday, albeit six months after you made.This is hardly about baiting you, although that said you took the bait; hook, line, and sinker.
It is all about showing how much of a coward, a liar, and a hypocrite you are, all "goreans" are.
I thought Minxie might like to know how much of a coward you are too,(and others) seeing as you do not have the courage to debate with her but choose to run away from her, and now myself, I just figured I could bring the above facts concerning your "ethical" behaviour into the light.
Cockroaches hate the light, from your reaction to me discovering your cowardness, so do you.
After you feigned indifference and proclaimed loudly thus, you went to your own board to continue a debate behind the person's back, showing just how (un) ethical you are.
You must visit this board very oft for you to make a comment just a day after I made one, very oft indeed.
But I already knew that.
I was not pointing out mispelt words, when quoting it is the proper format to highlight these words so that one may not be accused of improper deeds by others.
Not unlike your claim that I spelled "refering" with three "r's" in my last post, a quick perusal of it will find no such mistake, nor will you find that it was edited.
Unlike your last post.
Why would I bother replying to your board when you refuse to post here yet continue to talk behind the person in questions back?
My aren't you a hypocrite.
Further you already threatened to ban me before I even made a single post, I thought "goreans" were all about free speech?
"Dancing on the grave," yes I like that, the day that Lange dies I will light up a nice fat Montecristo.
................................................................................................
Tal, XSha Tell
And thanks for your effort. Swing and a miss. As I stated, I am unwilling to reply to your board, so this attempt of yours... this "I just stumbled over this six month old post, let's see if I can bait him", wont work.
But, I am willing to reply to your post here. While you claim that I ran away from your board, you couldn't find it within yourself to reply directly to the post where you found it either.
By replying to your post here, I admit that I read your board on occasion. I have a list of favorites I swing by, and yes, yours is in it. You must be so proud. Before you get up and dance, keep in mind that this "obscure board" has also found its way into the list of other peoples favorites as well. But since their opinion of you is similar to mine, I doubt they are going to reply to you here anymore than they will on the 'I Hate Goreans' forum.
But you are welcome to post here anyway. I am assuming that you will see this post before six months have passed. You found a new target, and you haven't been banned here, so perhaps some of the audience you have lost might again see more of your dedicated intolerance. The desire for that, and any, attention should be enough to inspire one of your tired, yet redundant dialogues. So, dust off your boots if you will.
I will add your name to the banned list here if or when I deem it necessary. Just thought I would make that clear from the start. Right now I have the option to read what you write, and reply to what I desire, at my leisure.
I would like to take a moment to thank you, also, for taking the time to correct my spelling errors on your board. I realize that you never make such minor errors, and that even the thought of viewing them makes your butt pucker. (edit -- By the way, in your last post, the word you used... "refering" (sic) ... is spelled with three r's)
And finally, is Gor dead? Why then, are you dragging up 6 month old posts? Maybe you could clarify it for me. Are you dancing on the grave, or does there remain enough power in the Gorean community to continue to frighten you?
I wish you well,
-Ron
Edited by: Jimeleri of Lara at: 5/13/03 11:11:29 am
Thank you XSha Tell for pointing out this site. I find myself discussed quite often in Gorean circles. I would prefer them to talk with me, rather than about me, for I am only interested in making them consider what it is they are saying when they say they take a philosophy from the Gorean novels.
I seem to always make them so cross. Perhaps because asking them to think about it, REALLY think about it, is a painful thing.
They are most willing to engage in verbal badinage that is non productive and really completely puerile. But discuss the real issues? Too discomfiting.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1079
(6/1/03 21:42) Reply
Re: re Run away.
You are most welcome.
I find it most cowardly for a person to run away from an argument, refusing, or at least claiming that they refuse to make further comment, only to find out that said person(s) are taking "pot shots" as it were behind another's back.
That is a very cowardly act, indeed.
I guess we'll just have to let things lie in state with the following quote:
"For now I withhold comment".
-Jimi
Funny, now that the coward has been caught, and has been shown to all for just what kind of "gorean" he truly is, he now chooses to "[...] withhold comment".
Didn't seem to stop him before, what changed, I must ask, other than the fact that I caught him.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1082
(8/10/03 17:41) Reply
Re: Response
If anyone needed an example of the writings of an unstable person I would recommend they view your posts; in my professional opinion.
As to you not knowing which board this is, poppycock, you have been posting here for the better part of a year, you found this string rather easily, did you not?
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