How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
Should they be of the age of majority, a minor?
Obviously the latter would mean paedophelia and "child slavery"{what most people see as a deplorable activity, just ask Cathy Lee Gifford or NIKE} existed upon gor, would it not?
I have very strong feelings about this one. I sometimes think it should be +30 but at the very least Gor should be a +21 community. I know we all thought we knew everything at 18 or 19 yr of age it wasn't until we got older we realized that wasn't the case.
Re: How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
Tal All..I've never posted here before..well..cuz..my opinions..well irrate..annoy..embaressed..or just plain baffle some people..but well I'm bored, so nevermind that. I've only read some books ~ducks~ dont shoot!..okay..but from what I do know..slaves..truelly releize they are slave at the age of 16. Theres a quote somewhere..but damned if I still have it. By our standards, 16..seems a bit young. But gotta remember this was Gor..and the same standards not always apply. I RP..alot..and I have seen a rash of 'younger' slaves..ones that are 13 or 14..that just seems..oh whats the word.."icky?" I guess some get off on that 'baby girl' thing..but in that case..seek professional help. Okay, before I make more of an arse outta my self- I did you all a pleasent afternoon..eve..
A boy, yes a boy, take that Silk and Steel, funny how they ignore parts of Gor to suit their {rhymes with...} own beliefs.
This boy, called Fish, Norman says of him that the men, "had taken a 'fancy' to the boy".
page 223 Raiders
The other a girl, Vina.
"They were both quite young".
Page 234 Raiders
"He was perhaps 'seventeen', she perhaps 'fifteen' or 'sixteen'.
Page 234 Raiders.
Now get this, Bosk gives Vina to Fish, a slave owning another slave and having sexual relations.
"At night chain them together" Bosk says.
page 235
"A single blanket"?
"Yes".
Page 235
Now a bit later Bosk "weeps" for his lost love Midice.
Like a lovelorn teen.
So much for all of this crap that rt'ers like the Ss'ers call as a philosophy.
So to answer my own question, Yes, there not only was Child Slave Labour on Gor, but also what we would consider illegal sex with minors, perhaps even hedging upon paedophilia.
It makes one realy wonder if they{the SS'ers} have ever truly "read the books" or if they just read Marcus and Bears regurgitations.
Re: FYI
Thanks. I've only read 1 of the books and I barely made it through that. I'm always impressed (?) that people can quote anything. I found none of it memorable
Wren
Re: FYI
Don't worry..I can't quote anything, unless I course someone sends it to me..yelling that I'm not by the "book" 'enuff..but enough a whole 'nother story..if you do want to muddle though another book..I have a few links where you can read them online..much easier than scouring used bookstores. But if you don't..I really can't blame you..I've read..some of the books..not all that impressive..oh well- have a fun night~~
I suspect many others never read the things they proclaim as their own.
How else could you explain a person claiming Aleister Crowley a "visionary", or a "founder" of Gor who claims to live "by the books" yet refuses to acknowledge male slaves.
The only answer is they have not read.
As for Raiders it is Vol. VI
Printed in Dec. 1971.
Re: FYI
This Man, Aleister Crowley doesn't acknowledge male slaves..because if he did- it just wouldn't fit the "Males are dominate and all females are submissive" theory. I've heard this term before- live by the books? how in the )*%^$#@@$? can someone live by the books? Do these people have sword-battles and ride tarns and lounge in paga dens using numerous slaves..?
Some of them would most likely answer with an emphatic, Yes.
But note these are the same people that refuse to call what they do online as role play, dunno, when I go to the Ss irc chat, I see a lot of cyber paga and blackwine being cyber served.
Then of course there is Marcus, who last I understood, pranced around on a small horse jousting with balsam wood lances for a living.
Roleplaying some sort of medieval fantasy, for pay albeit.
But are not the actions of Marcus_OF_Ar exactly what the SS'ers decry as the fundamental reason as to what they hate the most {asides from male slaves}.
Let us examine this further:
joust:
n. combat between two knights on horseback with lances.
n. to engage in a joust
knight:
n.1 a man awarded a non-hereditary title{sir} by a sovereign.
hist. 2 a man of noble rank, raised to honourable military rank after serviceas a page and a squire.
3 a man devoted to a cause, esp. woman, etc..
4 Chess piece
What conclusions can we draw from this?
Marcus is not a knight, he has never served, he is not of noble or military rank, yet I believe he claims the rarri as his caste {how one could do so without actually ever serving is beyond me, wanabee raises it's head yet again}. We all know only subby brats call their masters "sir", and he certainly has not honourably devoted himself to women's causes.
So what is the conclusion.
Marcus as with all of the others of the SS{rt'ers} are living in a world of make believe.
A Question
I've been curious lately, why suddenly John Lange's given name is being used by everyone. Does it validate a more true, real-life gorean by not using his pseudonym? Does it make one feel more personally connected to him? And why on any biographies on the net it doesn't give his viewpoint of a Gorean life outside of the books he's written? I've seen links to "read real emails and letters from John Norman" but the pages have all expired or they're empty.
Wren
Re: How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
Sha,
I've figured out how you feel as you know through my emails how I feel. But getting back to the subject of age on Gor (I don't mean the planet) I am very disturbed by underaged girls and boys playing in adult channels or on chat boards. 1. I don't think this is the place for them to "broaden their horizons" 2. I worry that with their novice experience they are more like to be duped into doing something that is just physically and mentally unhealthy when it comes to a relationship. and 3. Call me selfish, but I don't want to come here and talk to a bunch of kids. Their lack of experience in all aspects of life may be refreshing in some context but for the most part its boring.
We've all heard "She's so mature for her age" Well that's true when you compare a 17 YO to someone in her own age group/developmental stage. But that same maturity lacks severely when you compare that 17 YO to a 40 YO.
I have a problem with the notion "some girls know they are slaves at age 16" I have teenagers and their knowledge of slavery is more reality based. They know their US history and the reason for the American Civil War. I'm pretty sure my daughter does not want to be a slave. I worry that children see this as a "Harlequin Romance Novel" and we all know from posts on other sites that is not the case. Children cannot comprehend the line between fantasy play and the dangers of real-life encounters. (We have some adults around here having the same trouble)
Are the RPers on AOLGor able to have any control over their chatrooms so that they can have underage children (without the lockdown of Parental Controls)ousted?
Ok, I'm done with my rant.
H&K
Wren
Re: How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
I was in no way advocating paedophilia.
I was pointing out the fallacies of their philosophy.
That they pick and choose that which they find best suits them.
That they are hypocrites.
If they pick and choose what they want from the books it is hardly gorean.
A real gorean man according to the books has no problem with male slaves, homosexuals, child slave labour, and paedophilia.
They {the Ss/rt'ers}advocate Gor as a natural law, how many times have they proclaimed this?
Numerous, many, a lot.
They only like to proclaim what they feel is "natural" though. They disregard completely not only what their founding writer says in the books when it comes to aspects of gorean culture that are, well, very well documented within Norman/Langes books but what science tells us about this preternatural law that they falsely acsribe.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1195
(8/7/06 15:50) Reply
Re: How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
Lindsey Tanner and Shannon Proudfoot, with files from Zev Singer, The Ottawa Citizen and The Associated Press
Published: Monday, August 07, 2006
Teens who listen to music with degrading sexual lyrics have sex sooner than teens who don't, a new study says.
The research, which will be published today in the August issue of Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, is the first study to examine the relationship between what teens hear through their headphones and what they do in their bedrooms.
Among heavy listeners of sexually degrading music -- where men are "studs" and women are objects -- 51 per cent started having sex within two years, versus 29 per cent of those who listened to little or none of that type of music.
The authors analysed the music of 16 top artists and categorized as degrading any lyrics that "depicted sexually insatiable men pursuing women valued only as sex objects." They then assessed the sexual behaviour and music tastes of 1,461 U.S. adolescent participants, tracked through a series of telephone interviews over three years.
"Adolescents who listen to a lot of music containing these objectifying and limiting characterizations of sexuality progress more quickly in their sexual behaviour, regardless of their race or gender," the study concluded, emphasizing that there was no correlation found between behaviour and sexualized lyrics that were not degrading in tone.
Steven Martino, the study's lead author and a researcher for the Rand Corporation, a non-profit Pittsburgh-based think tank, said degrading lyrics teach boys that they should be relentless in pursuit of women and teach girls that they should view themselves as sex objects.
"We think that really lowers kids' inhibitions and makes them less thoughtful" about sexual decisions, he said, adding that the music may lead teens to make decisions they regret.
"There is good reason to believe that music may have an important influence on adolescents' sexual behaviour," the study says, noting that American teens between the ages of 15 and 18 listen to 1.5 to 2.5 hours of music a day, with a quarter of them listening to more than three hours.
The degrading songs are not the love songs of yesteryear.
"These types of portrayals objectify and degrade women in ways that are obvious, but do the same to men by depicting them as sex-driven studs whose individual desires are subsumed to their gender role," the authors noted.
The authors state clearly that in their view "early activity is a significant problem in the United States." They note a recent survey that suggested most sexually experienced teens regretted they had not waited longer.
Natasha Ramsey, a 17-year-old from New Brunswick, New Jersey, said she and other teens sometimes listen to sexually explicit songs because they like the beat.
"I won't really realize that the person is talking about having sex or raping a girl," she said. Even so, the message "is being beaten into the teens' heads," she said.
- - -
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1204
(8/29/06 13:22) Reply
How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
By WILLIAM J. KOLE
The Associated Press
Saturday, August 26, 2006; 3:22 PM
VIENNA, Austria -- She dashed to freedom the moment she got a chance, but reportedly wept inconsolably when told her "master" had thrown himself in front of a train. She had a tearful reunion with her parents, yet hasn't asked for them since.
New details _ and fresh questions _ emerged Saturday about Natascha Kampusch's welfare after her ordeal at the hands of a man who yanked her off a suburban street when she was 10 and confined her to a squalid, windowless cell for more than eight years.
For the first time, a lawyer offered a glimpse into how Kampusch is faring since her dramatic flight Wednesday from her captor, Wolfgang Priklopil, as he made a cell phone call at his house in the town of Strasshof, just north of Vienna.
Erich Zwettler of the Federal Criminal Investigations Bureau said the young woman _ who had a brief and emotional reunion with her family after her escape _ had not expressed a desire to see them again. Zwettler said Kampusch would not be questioned again until Monday at the earliest.
"She urgently needs a break," he said. "She needs her rest."
That pained her father, Ludwig Koch, desperate to have five minutes with the daughter he never expected to see alive again.
The Austria Press Agency, citing a senior investigator, said Koch begged police to be allowed to have a cup of coffee with her and snap a few photographs to share with the extended family. Police declined, fearing the photos would end up splashed across newspapers and on television because of intense interest in the case, long one of Austria's greatest unsolved mysteries.
But later Saturday, Koch excitedly told reporters his daughter sent him a letter that read, in part: "We'll have all the time in the world."
Police psychologists have suggested Kampusch may have suffered from so-called "Stockholm Syndrome," where victims adapt to what otherwise would be insufferable situations by identifying with their captors.
Although authorities said Priklopil at least initially insisted that his captive call him "master," the newspaper Kurier cited an unidentified investigator as saying she burst into tears when told this week he was dead.
The newspaper said statements Kampusch made to a female investigator suggested Priklopil may have had sexual contact with the girl, but Zwettler said the federal police could confirm only that she had confided in the officer. He said further interviews were needed, and investigators were examining diary entries for clues.
In most cases, The Associated Press does not identify victims or alleged victims of sexual assault. In this case, however, the name of the missing girl has been widely reported because of the circumstances of her abduction.
Kampusch, who was being kept in a secure and undisclosed location, was "for the moment well" and enjoying some private time reading newspapers and watching TV, said Monika Pinterits, an attorney who said she spent several hours at her side.
Describing her as "very intelligent and very eloquent," Pinterits told the Austria Press Agency that Kampusch objected to being pitied in news accounts about her.
Investigators have determined that Priklopil engaged in elaborate plans to build the hidden cell at least a year before the kidnapping, when he carried out extensive excavation work on his basement. He kept a small photo album of the project, which included a bed, a toilet, a sink, a small television and piles of books.
Police said the woman was occasionally allowed to watch videos and may even have been schooled by her captor.
Zwettler said investigators continue to comb through the house and are questioning numerous people as they work to determine whether Priklopil had any accomplices. At the time of the kidnapping, another girl told police she saw two men drag Kampusch into a white van.
DNA taken from the body of Priklopil, who jumped beneath a commuter train within hours of Kampusch's escape, was checked against a vast nationwide database and showed he was not wanted "anywhere in Austria in connection with a criminal offense," Zwettler said.
That relieved Police Maj. Gen. Gerhard Lang, who said it ruled out the possibility that the 44-year-old technician was a serial predator.
2006 The Associated Press
1996-2006 The Washington Post Company
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1205
(8/29/06 13:30) Reply
How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
The girl held for eight years as a sex slave in a tiny cellar in Vienna, is pregnant by her captor.
Natascha Kampusch, now 18, escaped the clutches of pervert Wolfgang Priklopil last Wednesday, but now according to German newspaper reports, it is feared she is carrying his child.
The Berliner Zeitung paper said it had been told by a reliable source that that she was expecting a baby by Priklopil.
The reports of her pregnancy follows a statement, released by Natascha in which she said she mourned the death of Priklopil, who threw himself under a train after she escaped.
She said: "He has been a big part of my life, and as a result I do feel I am in a sort of mourning for him."
The statement, read out by one of the team of psychologists and psychiatrists who are treating Natascha, seemed to confirm that she is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome - the condition in which kidnap or hostage victims empathise with their captors and often end up working alongside them.
Locked underground or doing housework year after year for Priklopil, Natascha, who is said to be pale and to weigh less than she did as a 10-year-old, says she does not feel she missed out on life.
In some ways she even benefitted from her captivity, she suggests, because she was not tempted to smoke or drink, or mix with the wrong friends.
[this is what you people get off on eh?; good for you, "it's natural"]
Natascha, who police sources have said was treated as a sex slave, also makes it clear that she will not discuss any intimate details of her long relationship with the 44-year-old telephone technician - not even with her doctors.
Police also revealed that one thing that kept Natascha's spirits up during her long captivity were comedy videos of Rowan Atkinson as Mr Bean.
They found stacks of them in her tiny prison, and Natascha says one of the first things she wants is to go on holiday in Britain with her half-sister.
Police are still combing Priklopil's house in a Vienna suburb, looking for any other hidden chambers. They said Natascha's cramped dungeon was taking a long time to search because it was so small.
Natascha finally solved one of Austria's greatest crime mysteries when she escaped from the house last Wednesday. Priklopil was guarding her as she vacuumed his car, but she saw the opportunity to run when he turned his back and walked away from her to talk on his cellphone.
She said: 'That was my chance, I dropped the vacuum cleaner and left it running.'
Police were called when she was found cowering in a neighbour's garden.
Confusingly she said: 'He would, sometimes be my support and sometimes be the person who kicked me. But with me he had picked the wrong person, and we both knew that.'
Natascha says she and Priklopil furnished the windowless cell she refers to as 'my room' together.
The tiny, cramped room contained a toilet, washbasin, radio and TV. It was cluttered with books and clothes and there was barely room for her to stand beneath the bed built up on a platform.
Natascha is highly protective of her room. Apparently referring to photos of it released by police, she says: 'My room was equipped with everything I would need and I made it my home, and it was not meant to be shown to the public.'
During her captivity, Natascha was helped with reading, writing and arithmetic. But she is physically weak because she survived mostly on tinned and frozen foods and very little fruit or vegetables.
Pictures of her being helped under a blanket from a police station to the hospital where she is now being cared for show skinny white legs covered with red and purple blotches.
Detectives have been trying to determine whether the kidnapper had an accomplice. When Natascha was snatched, a 12-year-old girl said she saw two men drag her into a white van.
But Natascha said: 'He carried out the kidnapping by himself. Everything was already prepared.'
Life as a kidnap victim was humdrum. She says: 'My daily life: This was carefully regulated, mostly it started with a joint breakfast - he was anyway not working most of the time. There was housework, reading, television, talking, cooking. That's all there was, year in and year out, and always tied in with the fear of being lonely.'
Dr Friedrich said Natascha has been seriously traumatised and will take a long time to recover. Her medical team will be treating her for at least a year.
As an 18-year-old she is free to make her own decisions, but she is being helped by social workers at a secure location. But Natascha said she feels 'a little bit too much controlled.'
Natascha also says she sympathises with Priklopil's mother.
She said: "I feel sympathy for Wolfgang's mother. I can put myself in her position and I feel with her and understand. We are both thinking of him.'
But she made clear that it has been her decision not to see either of her own parents, and to only speak to them on the phone.
The name Stockholm Syndrome comes from a four-day bank siege in 1973 when Swedish bank staff ended up defending their captors.
Austrian police spokesman Erich Zwettler said: 'Natascha's medical team have confirmed she is suffering from a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome.'
Child psychiatrist Dr Ernst Berger, a member of the team treating Natascha, said: 'After so long with her kidnapper she is showing strong indications of Stockholm Syndrome. Physically she is also very weak because of her poor a diet.'
Dr Reinhard Haller, another psychiatrist on the team, said: 'Natascha seems to have a strong personality and that will help her, but it will be a long time before she ever fully trusts anyone again. Scars will remain, but hopefully no open wounds. Whatever happens it will be a long process.'
One of his colleagues said: 'Natascha left the world we know as a child and has returned to it as a traumatised young woman. It will take a long time to get over that.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 1209
(9/1/06 16:46) Reply
Re: How Old Should A Gorean Slave Be?
By Angelika Gruber
STRASSHOF, Austria (Reuters) - Natascha Kampusch's lawyer visited the windowless basement cell where she was held captive for eight years from the age of 10 on Friday and said he was devastated by the "unimaginable" conditions.
"The reality is harsher than anything you can imagine," Gerald Ganzger told reporters after examining the 6 square meter (65 sq ft) cell near Vienna that she was kept in by an Austrian man after he abducted her on the way to school.
"I am devastated -- this is unimaginable," he said. "It makes such a big difference to see this in real life rather than just in newspaper pictures."
Ganzger and police officers said it would help investigations into one of Austria's most notorious crimes that has made headlines across the world if Kampusch, now 18, returned to the house with them.
"One needs to revisit the crime scene to retrace all the steps and to clear up potential misunderstandings," said Armin Halm from the Federal Crime Office.
Her captor, 44-year-old communications technician Wolfgang Priklopil, killed himself shortly after she fled when he was distracted by a phone call while she was vacuuming his car.
Kampusch, now staying at an undisclosed location with counsellors, has said in a statement she was mourning Priklopil's death. Police say she had "sexual contact" with her captor but have not elaborated.
Experts say Kampusch is suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" -- a psychological condition in which prisoners begin to identify with their captors.
Her psychiatrist said the ordeal had left Kampusch with deep psychological scars but that she was also a mature woman.
In her statement issued earlier this week, she described how she and her captor furnished the cell hidden beneath a garage, had breakfast with him, helped him cook and chatted with him.
She said Priklopil had told her to address him as "master".
Police said they had completed a search for DNA traces in the house but were still hunting for other clues to confirm whether Priklopil had acted on his own or had a helper.
Divers were called in to search an old well in the garden.
Police said they were investigating whether Priklopil knew about John Fowles' novel "The Collector", which tells the story of a man who kidnapped a girl and hid her in a secret basement cell in the hope one day she might fall in love and marry him.
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