Survival Of The Fittest
Unregistered User
(3/4/00 15:33) Reply
Gor As Naziism; Survival of The Fittest, is natural? Hardly.
Gorean Nazism
"The words of the song also came back. Words
which were sung by the animals of long ago
and have been lost to memory for generations.
I will sing you that song now, comrades."
Animal Farm, George Orwell
Between 1967 and 1988, John Norman wrote a
series of twenty five science fiction novels,
set on the planet "Gor". The series is
notable as one of the most widely read and
influental examples of male Dominant / female
submissive erotica. In particular, its
depiction of a complex and uncompromising
Master / slave culture stands out by grasping
the nettle of portraying nonconsensual
slavery in fiction.
However, the books are marred by Norman's
variable quality and repetitive writing
style, and by the frankly National Socialist
theories which this article addresses and
exposes.
Many of the Gor books are set in regions of
the planet which are clearly a pastiche of
some historical Earth culture. This pattern
is established in book four, "Nomads of Gor",
set among nomadic tribesmen with many of the
customs of medieval Central Asia. By the
later books, this mechanical translation of
Earth cultures to Gor had become formulaic.
It could be argued that Norman followed the
same pattern by choosing to adapt some of the
genetic supremacist doctrines of National
Socialism to furnish the harshness which any
society based on nonconsensual slavery would
necessarily possess. As such, it might be
explainable as a fictional device.
During the growth of mass Internet use in the
1990's, fans of the Gor series were able to
communicate and organise themselves, and
publish writings of their own via the Web.
Much of this activity was centred on text
based realtime role playing environments,
such as IRC, and the most prominent of these
has been the silk&Steel (who's own members
often choose to use the abbreviation "S&S".)
Many of the participants in these channels
and chatrooms are mainly interested in some
form of Master / slave relationship, and
could legitimately claim to be practising a
consensual version of the customs and methods
of "Gorean Slavery". As such, they are as
legitimate as any other group within
consensual BDSM.
However, this environment has also spawned a
self proclaimed "Gorean Philosophy", and one
of its most prolific writers uses the name
_Marcus_ of Ar. (_Marcus_ operates the
silk&Steel website, and was employed by
Vision Entertainment as webmaster and Gorean
consultant - a decision influenced by John
Norman himself viewing the silk&Steel pages.)
Much of _Marcus_'s writing is perceptive, and
he has sometimes been concilliatory towards
people who identify as involved in BDSM (many
Goreans do not consider their Master / slave
preferences to be part of the D/s aspect of
BDSM.) However, his distillations of the
beliefs of fictional Goreans, which are
widely accepted by online Goreans as being
faithful to Norman's intentions, display the
same National Socialist theories of genetic
supremacy as the books.
Crucially, _Marcus_ and his fellow
"CyberGoreans", not only role play life as
Goreans, they also advocate the rightness of
this philosophy, and consequently they are
advocating a form of Neo-Nazism. For many,
this has been unwitting, and the lack of
familiarity of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf
contributes to this: people do not recognise
National Socialist doctrines when they are
dressed up in a new way.
These two extracts, representing the
fundamental ideas of both philosophies,
illustrate their identical foundations in
genetic supremacist theories:
"If a creature is naturally
genetically superior to another,
then it is considered fitting and
proper that such a creature should
dominate other, less developed
creatures. In regards to human
beings, it is understood that the
stronger and/or more intelligent
members of the race should be
allowed to assume their rightful
place in command of their
inferiors. In regard to
male/female sexual relations, it
is therefore the right of the
male, who is genetically
predisposed for physical
dominance, to control the physical
aspects of his relationship to the
female. ...
Subjugation of the Weak: This
principle acts as the inverse to
the tenet described above. In
order that the race may grow
stronger, it is necessary that the
weaker and lesser adaptive
elements of Gorean society be
diminished and controlled. Warfare
and slavery are two methods by
which this end is accomplished."
From What is the Philosophy of
Gor? by Marcus of Ar
"The struggle for the daily
livelihood leaves behind in the
ruck everything that is weak or
diseased or wavering; while the
fight of the male to possess the
female gives to the strongest the
right, or at least, the
possibility to propagate its kind.
And this struggle is a means of
furthering the health and powers
of resistance in the species. Thus
it is one of the causes underlying
the process of development towards
a higher quality of being. ...
Therefore a corrective measure in
favour of the better quality must
intervene. Nature supplies this by
establishing rigorous conditions
of life to which the weaker will
have to submit and will thereby be
numerically restricted; but even
that portion which survives cannot
indiscriminately multiply, for
here a new and rigorous selection
takes place, according to strength
and health."
From Mein Kampf, Vol I, Chapter
11, "Race and People" by Adolf Hitler
As such, the "Gorean Philosophy" is rightly
seen as a form of Neo-Nazism, and would more
properly be called Gorean Nazism.
Most right-wing ideologies are subject to
shrill accusations of "fascism" or "nazism"
at some time or another, and the Gorean
Philosophy has already been confronted in
this ineffectual way, without the
justifications based on detailed comparisons
with "Mein Kampf" presented in this article.
CyberGoreans have responded by pointing to
the lack of racism of Goreans, as if racism
is the defining quality of Nazism. However,
this is to misunderstand the basis of Nazism:
the Nazi criterion for elimination or
extermination is the Goreans' own principle
of "genetic superiority" and race was just
the major (and most crude) way of identifying
individuals with undesirable genetic
qualities.
This is well illustrated by the ease with
which other Neo-Nazis are reclassifying the
worth of different races and ethnic groups,
to the extent that the owners of www.nazi.org
(the ingeniously named "Libertarian National
Socialist Green Party") boast black members
among their ranks and now find it convenient
to admit that "scientific evidence suggests a
naturally - occurring chaotic pattern of even
distribution of intelligence throughout the
'races.'"
It is also well documented that German Nazis
used medical as well as racial criteria to
identify what Goreans are now calling "the
weaker and lesser adaptive elements", as
witnessed in the Nazi programme of murder and
forcible sterilisation of Germans with
hereditary diseases and disabilities, so that
they could be - to use the Gorean's
euphemistic words again - "diminished and
controlled." (It is estimated that 30,000
disabled Germans were "diminished and
controlled" by lethal injection or gas in
Hartheim Castle alone.)
Furthermore, Gorean Nazism and the original
German Nazism share strong concepts of tribal
identity rooted in ancient history which form
the basis of political life and statehood:
"folk", race and nation in the case German
Nazism, and city and "homestone" in the
Gorean version. Both philosophies share
xenophobic attitudes: it is telling that the
Goreans have one word for both "stranger" and
"enemy".
And as we see here, both philosophies would
order society into a hierarchy based on
genetic supremacy, with the "inferiors" kept
rigidly in line:
"No," said Marcus, "Freedom is for the free.
Others are to be kept in line, and exactly
so. Society depends on divisions and order,
each element stabilized perfectly in its
harmonious relationship with all others."
"You do not believe, then" I asked, "that
everyone is the same, or must be supposed to
be such, despite all evidence to the
contrary, and that society thrives best as a
disordered struggle?"
Marcus looked at me, startled.
"No," I said "I see that you do not."
"Magicians of Gor" by John Norman (p119)
"On the basis of this recognition it feels
bound in conformity with the eternal Will that
dominates the universe, to postulate the
victory of the better and stronger and the
subordination of the inferior and weaker. And
so it pays homage to the truth that the
principle underlying all Nature's operations
is the aristocratic principle and it believes
that this law holds good even down to the
last individual organism. It selects
individual values from the mass and thus
operates as an organizing principle, whereas
Marxism acts as a disintegrating solvent."
From Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter 1,
"Weltanschauung and Party" by Adolf Hitler
Both Gor and Nazi Germany are well known as
militaristic societies in which the armed
forces are granted a uniquely influential
political role, and in both cases this can
be traced back to their philosophical
foundations, which claim that warfare fosters
genetic purity and national strength:
"People sometimes say to me: "Be careful! You
will have twenty years of guerilla warfare on
your hands!" I am delighted at the prospect
... Germany will remain in a state of
perpetual alertness." Adolf Hitler,
29 August 1942.
"the Priest-Kings may have wished war to be a
biologically selective process in which the
weaker and slower perish and fail to
reproduce themselves. This might account for
the relatively primitive weapons allowed to
the Men Below the Mountains. ... Also, the
primitive weapons guaranteed that what
selection went on would proceed with
sufficient slowness to establish its
direction, and alter it, if necessary."
"Tarnsman of Gor" by John Norman (p4
"It would have to be in accordance with the
eternal laws of life on this Earth which are
and will remain those of a ceaseless struggle
for existence. It must always be remembered
that in many instances a hardy and healthy
nation has emerged from the ordeal of the
most bloody civil wars, while from peace
conditions which had been artificially
maintained there often resulted a state of
national putrescence that reeked to the
skies." From Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter
15, "The Right to Self Defence" by Adolf
Hitler
Further congruences between German and Gorean
Nazism could be listed (such as similar
attitudes to environmentalism and long
ranting that humanity is denying "the Iron
law of Nature") but let this final example of
Gor paraphrasing German Nazism at a detailed,
even trivial level, suffice for the moment:
both philosophies limit access to the civil
liberties associated with citizenship, as
described here:
"Young men and women of the city, when coming
of age, participate in a ceremony which
involves the swearing of oaths, and the
sharing of bread. fire and salt. In this
ceremony the Home Stone of the city is held
by each young person and kissed. Only then
are the laurel wreath and the mantle of
citizenship conferred. This is a moment no
young person of Ar forgets. The youth of
Earth have no Home Stone. Citizenship,
interestingly, in most Gorean cities is
conferred only upon the coming of age, and
only after certain examinations are passed.
Further, the youth of Gor, in most cities,
must be vouched for by citizens of the city,
not related in blood to him, and be
questioned before a committee of citizens,
intent upon determining his worthiness or
lack thereof to take the Home Stone of the
city as his own. Citizenship in most Gorean
communities is not something accrued in
virtue of the accident of birth but earned in
virtue of intent and application."
"Slave Girl of Gor" by John Norman (p394)
"This act of inauguration in citizenship shall
be a solemn ceremony. And the diploma
conferring the rights of citizenship will be
preserved by the young man as the most
precious testimonial of his whole life. It
entitles him to exercise all the rights of a
citizen and to enjoy all the privileges
attached thereto. ...
On the occasion of conferring a diploma of
citizenship the new citizen must take a
solemn oath of loyalty to the national
community and the State. ...
The citizen has privileges which are not
accorded to the alien. He is the master in
the Reich. But this high honour has also its
obligations. Those who show themselves
without personal honour or character, or
common criminals, or traitors to the
fatherland, can at any time be deprived of
the rights of citizenship. Therewith they
become merely subjects of the State."
Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter 3, "Citizens
and Subjects of the State" by Adolf Hitler
Given their identical, genetic supremacist
foundations and their detailed agreement over
issue after issue, why do the followers of
the "Gorean Philosophy" not admit that their
philosophy already has a name, and that name
is Nazism?
An entire religion based on science fiction, sound familiar?
Who is Xemu?
I'm going to tell you a story. Are you sitting comfortably? Right, then I'll begin.
Once upon a time (75 million years ago to be more precise) there was an alien galactic ruler
named Xemu. Xemu was in charge of all the planets in this part of the galaxy including our
own planet Earth, except in those days it was called Teegeeack.
Now Xemu had a problem. All of the 76 planets he controlled were
overpopulated. Each planet had on average 178 billion people. He
wanted to get rid of all the overpopulation so he had a plan.
Xemu took over complete control with the help of renegades to defeat
the good people and the Loyal Officers. Then with the help of
psychiatrists he called in billions of people for income tax inspections
where they were instead given injections of alcohol and glycol mixed
to paralyse them. Then they were put into space planes that looked
exactly like DC8s (except they had rocket motors instead of
propellers).
These DC8 space planes then flew to planet Earth where the paralysed people were stacked
around the bases of volcanoes in their hundreds of billions. When they had finished stacking
them around then H-bombs were lowered into the volcanoes. Xemu then detonated all the
H-bombs at the same time and everyone was killed.
The story doesn't end there though. Since everyone has a soul (called a "thetan" in this story)
then you have to trick souls into not coming back again. So while the hundreds of billions of
souls were being blown around by the nuclear winds he had special electronic traps that caught
all the souls in electronic beams (the electronic beams were sticky like fly-paper).
After he had captured all these souls he had them packed into boxes and taken to a few huge
cinemas. There all the souls had to spend days watching special 3D motion pictures that told
them what life should be like and many confusing things. In this film they were shown false
pictures and told they were God, The Devil and Christ. In the story this process is called
"implanting".
When the films ended and the souls left the cinema these souls started to stick together because
since they had all seen the same film they thought they were the same people. They clustered in
groups of a few thousand. Now because there were only a few living bodies left they stayed as
clusters and inhabited these bodies.
As for Xemu, the Loyal Officers finally overthrew him and they locked him away in a mountain
on one of the planets. He is kept in by a force-field powered by an eternal battery and Xemu is
still alive today.
That is the end of the story. And so today everyone is full of these clusters of souls called "body
thetans". And if we are to be a free soul then we have to remove all these "body thetans" and
pay lots of money to do so. And the only reason people believe in God and Christ was because
it was in the film their body thetans saw 75 million years ago.
Well what did you think of that story?
What? You thought it was a stupid story?
Well so do we. However, this story is the core belief in the religion known as Scientology.* If
people knew about this story then most people would never get involved in it. This story is
told to you when you reach one of their secret levels called OT III. After that you are supposed
to telepathically communicate with these body thetans to make them go away. You have to pay
a lot of money to get to this level and do this (or you have to work very hard for the
organisation on extremely low pay for many years).
We are telling you this story as a warning. If you become involved with Scientology then we
would like you to do so with your eyes open and fully aware of the sort of material it contains.
Most of the Scientologists who work in
their Dianetics* centres and so called
"Churches" of Scientology do not know this
story since they are not allowed to hear it
until they reach the secret "upper" levels of
Scientology. It may take them many years
before they reach this level if they ever do.
The ones who do know it are forced to keep
it a secret and not tell it to those people
who are joining Scientology.
Part of the first page of the secret OT III document in L. Ron Hubbard's own
handwriting:
Now you have read this you know their big secret. Don't let us put you off joining though.
* Dianetics and Scientology are trademarks of the Religious Technology Centre. This document is not connected with that organisation in any way.
Marcus of Ar
Unregistered User
(3/19/00 3:30) Reply
What a load of unmitigated crap
While "soron" or "Survival of the Fittest" or whatever name he chose to spam this board with his wild cries of "Nazism" (he's been posting this thing on every Gorean themed board he can find, and is particularly pissed off if an administrator removes it, I note) is rather longwinded, he doesn't bother to post the entire text of the webpage which he claims proves that Goreans are Nazis. Rather, in the case of my own writings, he just posts two lines extracted from the middle of one of my pages, out of context. Which seems to be his modus operandi.
I invite anyone who wishes to do so to view the full text of the actual page from which he quoted:
...and judge for yourself how well the Gorean principles of self-reliance, self-responsibility, and the right of everyone to accomplish whatever they can, in a society which does not fetter and repress them, fit the bill of "Nazism."
Re: What a load of unmitigated crap
How would a "Gorean" treat an individual that was incapable of supporting themselves?
I.E.: say someone with Cerebral Palsy, Alzheimer's disease, A.L.S., etc, etc. Would a Gorean give up a kidney for someone that needed it? Put themselves on a doners list for bone marrow? As far as I can tell "Goreans" believe in helping themselves first, survival of the fittest, and social Darwinism.
Marcus of Ar
Unregistered User
(3/19/00 16:16) Reply
I would suggest...
...that they would deal with such situations in pretty much the same way which we ourselves do. That what they would do would be entirely dependent upon their personal relationship with the individual who required their aid.
The Goreans are nothing if not fiercely loyal towards those of their own family, extended clan, caste and tribal grouping (city). In addition, they seem to have spent an inordinate amount of time developing their medical arts to the highest degree. And that was not, in my opinion, intended NOT to relieve suffering and to improve overall quality of life. Nor do the Goreans horde their medical secrets, and keep them from other cities; the universal reach of the Physicians caste, which supercedes any single polis, serves to make such medical advances available to any who require them.
What is often commonly referred to as Social Darwinism is primarily a system of economics... but Gorean society practices what might be defined as the basic principles of Social Darwinism on an organizational, though not economic, scale. Hence what the Robber Barons of the nineteenth century considered "Social Darwinism," though a comparison can be made, is not really entirely applicable.
Goreans can be, and are described in the books, as quite charitable. Charity and aid for those who could not otherwise obtain succor is typically handled through the individual's caste organizations, however, rather than on a personal level.
One might compare the basic concepts behind Gorean society to Heigel's writings, or to Darwin's... or even to a modified form of non-economic Social Darwinism. But based upon the material which is present in the books, any comparison to Hitler's National Socialism (Nazism) is way, way off base. It's not the concepts themselves which are bad, it's what one does with them. Marxism, for instance, may not have been entirely worthless... but Communism under Stalin was hideous. The Nazi take on Social Darwinism was simply to use it as a mask for a racist agenda, to elevate one people above all the rest. Both instances wherein basic philosophical principles were twisted around not to cause specific results, but to justify actions in pursuit of an agenda; in both of the aforementioned cases, an agenda which was already being practiced.
One has to look at the Goreans, and their society, to see how it actually functioned, and why, before rendering judgement on its moral or political correctness.
Calling Goreans Nazis, or Fascists, or some other buzzword designed to make use of blatant trigger rhetorics, really doesn't work. Darwin was called a lunatic for even daring to suggest his theory of evolution in the first place; but that doesn't mean it has no validity, as history has shown.
Besides, in all actuality, Gorean society has a lot less to do with "survival of the fittest" than with "a proper place for everything and everything in its proper place." In my opinion, Gorean theory is not based upon casualty; rather it is based upon causality.
Re: I would suggest...
That is very interesting Marcus, yet it really does not answer my questions. Was there a Social welfare system on Gor, universal medicare, does the "philosophy" of the Gorean books even allow for such things? What would have happened to someone that had developmental disabilties or brain damage. What is the place in "Gorean" society for those individuals that are completely incapable of caring for themselves? Was it possible to move between castes to "better oneself"? Or was one destined to be a peasant or whatever their birth right was.
And then there is still the argument that we have had in the past about Gor being completely fictional, like the "philosophies" of the C.O.S. .
To a lot of people, perhaps most, Gor is a game nothing more. If the "realifers" could accept that simple fact instead of trying to put these people down things might be far more fun for all individuals involved and maybe some of the gamers might even be persuaded to the "darkside". ;0)
As for Gor being rascist perhaps not but they are certainly predjudiced between homestones and castes. A certain kind of rascism in itself.
We will always disagree Marcus but saying that I do enjoy our " arguments".
Have A Nice Day,
Marcus of Ar
Unregistered User
(3/19/00 17:29) Reply
Okay! : )
Sha Tell wrote:
"That is very interesting Marcus, yet it really does not answer my questions."
I apologize. I had thought that I had, in fact, shed some light on the subject you broached. I had certainly tried to do so.
For instance, you ask:
"Was there a Social welfare system on Gor" ?
Yes, the administration of care for those who cannot care for themselves is typically dealt with by the caste organizations.
"universal medicare" ?
Yes, it is stated quite clearly in the Gor books that the caste of Physicians, which transcends city politics, makes medical care available to pretty much anyone who requires it.
"does the "philosophy" of the Gorean books even allow for such things?"
Quite obviously it does so.
"What would have happened to someone that had developmental disabilties or brain damage. What is the place in "Gorean" society for those individuals that are completely incapable of caring for themselves?"
As I said before, what is the place for people with such severe handicaps and limitations in our own, current, society? They are cared for by those who have the altrusitic wherewithal and vested emotional interest in caring for them... their friends, family, caste members, and overall by those of the caste of Physicians (see above).
"Was it possible to move between castes to "better oneself"?"
Yes. It is stated quite clearly in the Gor books that individuals can, and do, raise or alter their caste affiliations if they prove better suited for a particular area of interaction, and choose to do so.
"And then there is still the argument that we have had in the past about Gor being completely fictional, like the "philosophies" of the C.O.S."
Whether or not the planet Gor is fictional, I stand my assertion that the philosophical points contained in those books are NOT fictional, and most can be found mirrored elsewhere, in various forms, in relevent social and sociobiological philosophy as it is practiced today, here "on Earth."
You said:
"As for Gor being rascist perhaps not but they are certainly predjudiced between
homestones and castes. A certain kind of rascism in itself."
I disagree. Human beings all tend to be prejudiced in various ways, be it patriotism for the country of their origin, pride in the company one works for, or even preferring and cheering for one sports team over another. Racism is, by its very nature, prejudicial behavior based upon race. While all prejudice is inherently similar in function, it seems to me that some forms of it are more understandable, and palatable, than others. Racism being the most ridiculous form of such prejudice in my book.
You said:
"We will always disagree Marcus but saying that I do enjoy our " arguments"."
We will? Always?
Uh... okay. If you say so.
I cannot remember ever arguing with you before, frankly. Your name looked familiar, admittedly, but it didn't immediately strike me as being someone I'd formerly debated with. But then, while traversing the internet, one meets a lot of people, and some of the names get blurred after awhile.
Therefore, since we will always disagree, I will cease posting here and leave, and save us both a lot of time and bandwidth.
Re: Okay! : )
Really Marcus, you don't remember the vicious emails that you sent me? I still have them if you'd like to re- read them. Putting me on your ignore list on hotmail, then continuing to send me email even though I was no longer able to reply. How small your short term memory is as it was only a month ago now, feb. 23 to be exact when you sent the last of your email attacks. You know the letter where you stated to me that wanting to own or be owned is an inherently social condition. That the existence of slavery is directly dependent on the ethical and legal acceptance of a said society. Well in the society in which we live Marcus slavery is neither legal nor is it socially acceptable in the least. And as for not rememering me, hogwash, you made reference to this board many times throughout our conversations. Please feel free to enlighten us though Marcus, as you can obviously see unlike a lot of other forums this one never censors it's posters.
Have A Nice Day,
P.S.: Perhaps the name Dr. Dean G. Baker is more familiar to you Marcus.
Marcus of Ar
Unregistered User
(3/20/00 2:33) Reply
Aha! So it's you.
"Sha Tell" is certainly not the name I remember you under, though now I now who you are, and remember you quite clearly.
You're the fellow who wrote all that inflammatory crap to that other AOL board, and eventually posted someone's offline telephone number to that board without their permission, and got banned from that board for it. And who then wrote a series of insulting emails to me, seemingly as a means by which you could harass me.
In that case, I'll repeat my earlier emailed statements to you:
In regards to your emailed pronouncement that "slavery is anti-social behavior":
"Wanting to own or to be owned by another PERSON seems to me to be an inherently social condition, not an anti-social, if one were to study it. "Anti-social" means simply "against or apart from" society, whereas "social" means "in regards to society." If one's society supported slavery (and many societies have done so) then I suppose the matter would be a social one."
...and this:
"You confuse "philosophy" which would be, in this case, the reason behind a particular social practice, with the actual social practice. If slavery were considered irreprehensibly immoral on Gor, it would not be practiced as a matter of morality. In effect, you are saying that the philosophical points upon which, say, Arabic culture is based, are self-renouncing because several of the Arab states formerly accepted and supported the existence of slavery."
"I add that, not all Goreans mentioned in the Gor books were slave owners. But all of them acknowledged the reasons why, in their society, slavery existed, and seemed okay with the basic philosophical tenets which said that the social practice of such was possessed of its own validity."
And, in response to your emailed statement that we will continue to disagree, and that I should "enjoy my deviancy":
"Yes. We undoubtedly will.
Except we will not do so here. I will not have this email account clogged with your purposely insulting commentary, commentary which is based upon your extremely limited knowledge of what you are talking about.
I wouldn't discuss these matters with someone I met on the street, who spoke and comported himself as you do. I wouldn't discuss these matters at a cocktail party, with someone who spoke and comported himself as you do. I wouldn't discuss these matters with a ten year old child, one who cannot even be civil when discussing matters he obviously has not studied, if he comported himself as you do."
That remains in effect. Had I known this was your board, and that you were the one who runs it, I would never have posted here in the first place. The name Sha Tell was unfamiliar to me. But Dean Baker, banned from assorted Gorean boards and branded a pariah for his harrassment tactics of others?
THAT'S a name I recognize.
Thanks for clearing that matter up, Dean. I am now certain that I do not want to support your board or further post to it.
Truth Hurts Eh Marcus?
I did not post Dr. F. Lange's contact information without permision. The numbers are apart of a universal phone book given to university professors. Please feel free to contact the man himself and find out exactly just how sick he thinks you are. Lange, John F. Dr. (718)-997-5291 DEPT. PHILOSOPHY office powdermaker 260F. Right from CUNY's phonebook.
You actually believe that it is socially acceptable to own a slave(s)? You argue that society approves of owning a human being. That shows you are definetly clinically deviant and very anti- social Marcus, get some professional help before you get into serious trouble and hurt someone. Call your guru and ask him personally, except that you are too afraid to do so for you already know his answer.
As for being banned for posting contact information that is readily available to almost anyone, well nuff` said.
As for your timing of events Marcus, you put me on your ignore list then continued to send me email let's get this right. You say you do not want to "discuss" this but always end with insults, it is obvious that you are incabable of discussing this rationally without insult.
As for not supporting my board, fine, it has been up for just under a year and is surviving quite nicely without your presence. Although I have no doubt you will do your best to see that change. Anyways why are you here in the first place Marcus? This is a board mostly for Aol gamers, you know the ones Silk & Steel despises and insults at every opportunity.
P.S.: Marcus the posting in whole or in part of a private email goes against copyright law, you know the one that you and Silk & Steel are always whining about. Further in our email discussions I intentionally made you aware of that fact and explicitly told you that you did not have my permission to post the said letters. Where is your so-called Gorean honour now Marcus? Further, you say that you do not want me clogging up you email account yet you kept said email that was clogging up your account, one would have to ask why. Are you that paranoid and insecure Marcus that you feel the need to crush all dissenters to your sick anti-social and deviant ways. You say that you are Gorean then start acting like one, no wait that's impossible because it's a fictional Philosophy based on science- fantasy.
Have A Nice Day,
Marcus of Ar
Unregistered User
(3/20/00 16:04) Reply
Again, you resort to ad hominem insult. : )
Okay. Maybe I can at least teach you something, here. It can't hurt to try one last time.
You wrote:
"I did not post Dr. F. Lange's contact information without permision. The numbers are
apart of a universal phone book given to university professors."
And that makes it your prerogative to post them publicly, which might possibly result in harrassment of the fellow? I consider that incredibly irresponsible behavior. But then, I have already told you that. Edit: The number is apart of a public phonebook, with the intent of providing the professors contact info. to those that want it.
You wrote:
"You actually believe that it is socially acceptable to own a slave(s)? You argue that society approves of owning a human being."
Actually, read up at what I said. Go ahead. Read it. I never argued that "society approves of" anything, nor did I ever say that it was "socially acceptable" to own a slave. I simply commented to the effect that if a particular society DID allow for the existence of slavery within it, that the individuals who existed in said society would not consider it socially unacceptable at all. Edit: And I said that society does not accept slavery Marcus, at least the society in which I live. Join society Marcus.
You wrote:
"That shows you are definetly clinically deviant and very anti- social Marcus, get some professional help before you get into serious trouble and hurt someone." Edit:Hardly a "personal insult" Marcus (my you are thinned skinned) but my professional medical opinion
Personal insult.
You wrote:
"As for being banned for posting contact information that is readily available to almost anyone, well nuff` said."
I suspect that you were banned for irresponsibly posting someone's business phone number to a public internet forum, with seemingly no regard for any negative consequences which that action might incur to the person who's number you posted. 'Nuff said. Edit: Again what part of readily available to all do you not comprehend Marcus
You wrote:
"As for your timing of events Marcus, you put me on your ignore list then continued to send me email let's get this right."
I actually got around to placing you on my ignore list after your third, and most insulting, letter. I never sent you any email which was not a direct response to one which you had sent to me. As to my "insulting you," I find your tone acerbic and habitually rude, and I find you woefully ill-informed regarding anything which the Gor books say. And I commented to that effect. In the same tone and manner as I have done so above.
You wrote:
"You say you do not want to "discuss" this but always end with insults, it is obvious that you are incabable of discussing this rationally without insult."
You seem to be the expert on tossing insults around, here. I am always willing to discuss any matter with anyone, provided it is discussed in an intelligent and rational manner. Your own reputation for rational and reasonable debate speaks for itself, as does your post above. Edit: oh my a "personal insult"
You wrote:
"As for not supporting my board, fine, it has been up for just under a year and is surviving quite nicely without your presence."
Yes, by all means. It seems to be thriving. Edit: over 21 000 hits and counting
You wrote:
"Although I have no doubt you will do your best to see that change."
:: chuckles ::
Your board is your own business. I could not care less if it exists or not, frankly. Edit: If you did not care then you would not have posted here in the first place
You wrote:
"Anyways why are you here in the first place Marcus? This is a board mostly for Aol gamers, you know the ones Silk & Steel despises and insults at every opportunity."
Actually, I saw the address in a websearch and thought I'd pop in and see how the discussion was going. I personally have no problem with either AOL or roleplaying in general, provided it is done responsibly and intelligently. There are good people everywhere, if one looks for them. There are also a few bad apples in every barrel. You have repeatedly impressed me as one of the latter. Edit: ooooooo is that another "personal insult"? And yes I agree about the bad apples, like Phormio from Silk and Steel that threatened to send me a computer virus
You wrote:
"P.S.: Marcus the posting in whole or in part of a private email goes against copyright
law, you know the one that you and Silk & Steel are always whining about. Further in
our email discussions I intentionally made you aware of that fact and explicitly told
you that you did not have my permission to post the said letters."
Here's where I teach you something.
The posting in whole, or in part, of a private email message by anyone other than the author, is a direct violation of copyright if someone other than the poster is directly quoted to sufficient extent that it does not fall under the conditions of implied usage.
I can post anything which I myself have written anywhere I wish to. Nor did I directly quote anything which you wrote to me via email. I even paraphrased the three words of yours which I directly quoted. I own the copyright to the content of my own letters, which are written by myself.
Go ahead. Find a copyright lawyer. Ask him about it. See what he says.
Edit: Quite true marcus except you also qouted my words to you, a definite copy right infringement.
There's a free lesson in copyright law, courtesy of myself.
You wrote:
"Where is your so-called Gorean honour now Marcus?" Edit: just pathetic, hardly an insult
Personal insult.
You wrote:
"Further, you say that you do not want me clogging up you email account yet you kept said email that was clogging up your account, one would have to ask why."
I save all of my online correspondence. I didn't want your insulting emails clogging up my inbox.
You wrote:
"Are you that paranoid and insecure Marcus that you feel the need to crush all dissenters to your sick anti-social and deviant ways."
Personal insult. Pretty much the same stuff you were emailing to me. At least you're consistent. Edit: Again not a "personal insult" Marcus but my professional medical opinion
You wrote:
"You say that you are Gorean then start acting like one, no wait that's impossible because it's a fictional Philosophy based on science- fantasy."
It goes without saying that I disagree. Though you are certainly entitled to your opinion, one which I happen not to share.
If you weren't so darn rude, I might even discuss the matter with you further. But Gorean philosophy dictates that one should act as they are, and should strive to behave in accordance with their own true self. Which is what, I suspect, you are doing. Though admittedly I find you to be a rather unpleasant fellow.
Edit: marcus there is only one way to deal with hate, rasism and
nazism, that it to be unpleasant. I am glad I make you cringe and feel uncomfortable marcus , you are simply sickening.
Farewell, Dean! Fear not! I won't post here again. Edit: Yes marcus run away from the truth, coward.
_Marcus_
Edited by: XSha Tell at: 11/21/00 3:17:11 pm
Inter Alia
Unregistered User
(4/14/00 15:40) Reply
Researching
Hello...I am a journalist researching the Gor phenomenon and would be interested in talking to any or all of the participants on this board about Gor, Gor roleplay, and Gor lifestyle issues.
A direct quote from one of Marcus' many ramblings.
5)" Subjugation of the Weak: This principle acts as the inverse to the tenet described above. In order that the race may grow stronger, it is necessary that the weaker and lesser adaptive elements of Gorean society be diminished and controlled".
If that does not smack of eugenics and suggesting the creation of a "master race" nothing does.
"{"slave-abuse" (now THERE'S an oxymoron if I ever saw one)}" another of Marcus' sickening quotes.
So let's kill or subjugate the weak, frail, infirm, and disabled. And let us not forget to abuse slaves.
The great U.S.of A. fought a civil war, partially over the treatment/existence of slaves.
Where does it stop, colour of skin, religion, how wealthy one is?
The above quotes actually made my skin crawl, the hair literally stood up on the back of my neck. These are simply fascist statements. If this is a tenement of Gorean philosophy then it is indeed Nazism. Nauseating to anyone with an intelligence. Only a simpleton without social skills could believe any of this garbage.
For Some Bizzare Reason
A few, very few people have taken the Gor books to heart. They attempt to live their lives through what they see as an ideal society.
One large question begs though, Lange himself has publicly denounced the "Gorean Lifestyle" RT. So why would these individuals still subscribe to a philosphy that even it's author finds corrupt?
I wonder what would happen, if similarily, Jesus or some other such leader came back and said his writings were bogus? If Jesus is too much of a leap lets try L. Ron Hubbard. What if he announced his disdain for Scientology as Lange has for RT Goreans?
Wouldn't one have to re-examine what was being said? Wouldn't one also feel betrayed and leave said, for lack of a better word, cult?
Of course they would.
Gorean Nazism
"The words of the song also came back. Words which were sung by the animals of long ago and have been lost to memory for generations. I will sing you that song now, comrades." Animal Farm, George Orwell
Between 1967 and 1988, John Norman wrote a series of twenty five science fiction novels, set on the planet "Gor". The series is notable as one of the most widely read and influental examples of male Dominant / female submissive erotica. In particular, its depiction of a complex and uncompromising Master / slave culture stands out by grasping the nettle of portraying nonconsensual slavery in fiction.
However, the books are marred by Norman's variable quality and repetitive writing style, and by the frankly National Socialist theories which this article addresses and exposes.
Many of the Gor books are set in regions of the planet which are clearly a pastiche of some historical Earth culture. This pattern is established in book four, "Nomads of Gor", set among nomadic tribesmen with many of the customs of medieval Central Asia. By the later books, this mechanical translation of Earth cultures to Gor had become formulaic.
It could be argued that Norman followed the same pattern by choosing to adapt some of the genetic supremacist doctrines of National Socialism to furnish the harshness which any society based on nonconsensual slavery would necessarily possess. As such, it would be explainable as a fictional device (and there are reports that Norman does not wish his fiction to be seen as anything more than fantasy erotica with no political message.)
During the growth of mass Internet use in the 1990's, fans of the Gor series were able to communicate and organise themselves, and publish writings of their own via the Web. Much of this activity was centred on text based realtime role playing environments, such as IRC, and the most prominent of these has been the silk&Steel (who's own members often choose to use the abbreviation "S&S".)
Many of the participants in these channels and chatrooms are mainly interested in some form of Master / slave relationship, and could legitimately claim to be practising a consensual version of the customs and methods of "Gorean Slavery". As such, they are as legitimate as any other group within consensual BDSM.
However, this environment has also spawned a self proclaimed "Gorean Philosophy", and one of its most prolific writers uses the name _Marcus_ of Ar. (_Marcus_ operates the silk&Steel website.)
Much of _Marcus_'s writing is perceptive, and he has sometimes been concilliatory towards people who identify as involved in BDSM (many Goreans do not consider their Master / slave preferences to be part of the D/s aspect of BDSM.) However, his distillations of the beliefs of fictional Goreans, which are widely accepted by online Goreans as being faithful to Norman's intentions, display the same National Socialist theories of genetic supremacy as the books.
Crucially, _Marcus_ and his fellow "CyberGoreans", not only role play life as Goreans, they also advocate the rightness of this philosophy, and consequently they are advocating a form of Neo-Nazism. For many, this has been unwitting, and the lack of familiarity of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf contributes to this: people do not recognise National Socialist doctrines when they are dressed up in a new way.
These two extracts, representing the fundamental ideas of both philosophies, illustrate their identical foundations in genetic supremacist theories:
Marcus:
If a creature is naturally genetically superior to another, then it is considered fitting and proper that such a creature should dominate other, less developed creatures. In regards to human beings, it is understood that the stronger and/or more intelligent members of the race should be allowed to assume their rightful place in command of their inferiors. In regard to male/female sexual relations, it is therefore the right of the male, who is genetically predisposed for physical dominance, to control the physical aspects of his relationship to the female. ...
Hitler:
The struggle for the daily livelihood leaves behind in the ruck everything that is weak or diseased or wavering; while the fight of the male to possess the female gives to the strongest the right, or at least, the possibility to propagate its kind. And this struggle is a means of furthering the health and powers of resistance in the species. Thus it is one of the causes underlying the process of development towards a higher quality of being. ...
............................
Marcus:
Subjugation of the Weak: This principle acts as the inverse to the tenet described above. In order that the race may grow stronger, it is necessary that the weaker and lesser adaptive elements of Gorean society be diminished and controlled. Warfare and slavery are two methods by which this end is accomplished. Therefore a corrective measure in favour of the better quality must intervene. Nature supplies this by establishing rigorous conditions of life to which the weaker will have to submit and will thereby be numerically restricted; but even that portion which survives cannot indiscriminately multiply, for here a new and rigorous selection takes place, according to strength and health.
.................................
Hitler:
Therefore a corrective measure in favour of the better quality must intervene. Nature supplies this by establishing rigorous conditions of life to which the weaker will have to submit and will thereby be numerically restricted; but even that portion which survives cannot indiscriminately multiply, for here a new and rigorous selection takes place, according to strength and health.
From What is the Philosophy of Gor? by Marcus of Ar and Mein Kampf, Vol I, Chapter 11, "Race and People" by Adolf Hitler
As such, this self-proclaimed "Gorean Philosophy" is rightly seen as a form of Neo-Nazism, and would more properly be called Gorean Nazism.
Most right-wing ideologies are subject to shrill accusations of "fascism" or "nazism" at some time or another, and these ideas have already been confronted in this ineffectual way, without the justifications based on detailed comparisons with "Mein Kampf" presented in this article.
CyberGoreans have responded by pointing to the lack of racism of Goreans, as if racism is the defining quality of Nazism. However, this is to misunderstand the basis of Nazism: the Nazi criterion for elimination or extermination is the Goreans' own principle of "genetic superiority" and race was just the major (and most crude) way of identifying individuals with undesirable genetic qualities.
This is well illustrated by the ease with which other Neo-Nazis are reclassifying the worth of different races and ethnic groups, to the extent that the owners of www.nazi.org (the ingeniously named "Libertarian National Socialist Green Party") boast black members among their ranks and now find it convenient to admit that "scientific evidence suggests a naturally - occurring chaotic pattern of even distribution of intelligence throughout the 'races.'"
It is also well documented that German Nazis used medical as well as racial criteria to identify what Goreans are now calling "the weaker and lesser adaptive elements", as witnessed in the Nazi programme of murder and forcible sterilisation of Germans with hereditary diseases and disabilities, so that they could be - to use the Gorean's euphemistic words again - "diminished and controlled." (It is estimated that 30,000 disabled Germans were "diminished and controlled" by lethal injection or gas in Hartheim Castle alone.)
Furthermore, Gorean Nazism and the original German Nazism share strong concepts of tribal identity rooted in ancient history which form the basis of political life and statehood: "folk", race and nation in the case German Nazism, and city and "homestone" in the Gorean version. Both philosophies share xenophobic attitudes: it is telling that the Goreans have one word for both "stranger" and "enemy".
And as we see here, both philosophies would order society into a hierarchy based on genetic supremacy, with the "inferiors" kept rigidly in line:
.....................................
Marcus:
"No," said Marcus, "Freedom is for the free. Others are to be kept in line, and exactly so. Society depends on divisions and order, each element stabilized perfectly in its harmonious relationship with all others."
"You do not believe, then" I asked, "that everyone is the same, or must be supposed to be such, despite all evidence to the contrary, and that society thrives best as a disordered struggle?"
Marcus looked at me, startled.
"No," I said "I see that you do not."
.....................................
Hitler:
On the basis of this recognition it feels bound in conformity with the eternal Will that dominates the universe, to postulate the victory of the better and stronger and the subordination of the inferior and weaker. And so it pays homage to the truth that the principle underlying all Nature's operations is the aristocratic principle and it believes that this law holds good even down to the last individual organism. It selects individual values from the mass and thus operates as an organizing principle, whereas Marxism acts as a disintegrating solvent.
"Magicians of Gor" by John Norman (p119) From Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter 1, "Weltanschauung and Party" by Adolf Hitler
Both Gor and Nazi Germany are well known as militaristic societies in which the armed forces are granted a uniquely influential political role, and in both cases this can be traced back to their philosophical foundations, which claim that warfare fosters genetic purity and national strength:
People sometimes say to me: "Be careful! You will have twenty years of guerilla warfare on your hands!" I am delighted at the prospect ... Germany will remain in a state of perpetual alertness. Adolf Hitler, 29 August 1942.
the Priest-Kings may have wished war to be a biologically selective process in which the weaker and slower perish and fail to reproduce themselves. This might account for the relatively primitive weapons allowed to the Men Below the Mountains. ... Also, the primitive weapons guaranteed that what selection went on would proceed with sufficient slowness to establish its direction, and alter it, if necessary. "Tarnsman of Gor" by John Norman (p48)
It would have to be in accordance with the eternal laws of life on this Earth which are and will remain those of a ceaseless struggle for existence. It must always be remembered that in many instances a hardy and healthy nation has emerged from the ordeal of the most bloody civil wars, while from peace conditions which had been artificially maintained there often resulted a state of national putrescence that reeked to the skies. From Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter 15, "The Right to Self Defence" by Adolf Hitler
Further congruences between German and Gorean Nazism could be listed (such as similar attitudes to environmentalism and long ranting that humanity is denying "the Iron law of Nature") but let this final example of Gor paraphrasing German Nazism at a detailed, even trivial level, suffice for the moment: both philosophies limit access to the civil liberties associated with citizenship, as described here:
Young men and women of the city, when coming of age, participate in a ceremony which involves the swearing of oaths, and the sharing of bread. fire and salt. In this ceremony the Home Stone of the city is held by each young person and kissed. Only then are the laurel wreath and the mantle of citizenship conferred. This is a moment no young person of Ar forgets. The youth of Earth have no Home Stone. Citizenship, interestingly, in most Gorean cities is conferred only upon the coming of age, and only after certain examinations are passed. Further, the youth of Gor, in most cities, must be vouched for by citizens of the city, not related in blood to him, and be questioned before a committee of citizens, intent upon determining his worthiness or lack thereof to take the Home Stone of the city as his own. Citizenship in most Gorean communities is not something accrued in virtue of the accident of birth but earned in virtue of intent and application.
"Slave Girl of Gor" by John Norman (p394)
......................
This act of inauguration in citizenship shall be a solemn ceremony. And the diploma conferring the rights of citizenship will be preserved by the young man as the most precious testimonial of his whole life. It entitles him to exercise all the rights of a citizen and to enjoy all the privileges attached thereto. ...
On the occasion of conferring a diploma of citizenship the new citizen must take a solemn oath of loyalty to the national community and the State. ...
The citizen has privileges which are not accorded to the alien. He is the master in the Reich. But this high honour has also its obligations. Those who show themselves without personal honour or character, or common criminals, or traitors to the fatherland, can at any time be deprived of the rights of citizenship. Therewith they become merely subjects of the State.
Mein Kampf, Vol II, Chapter 3, "Citizens and Subjects of the State" by Adolf Hitler
...........................
Given their identical, genetic supremacist foundations and their detailed agreement over issue after issue, why do the followers of this self-proclaimed "Gorean Philosophy" not admit that their philosophy already has a name, and that name is Nazism?
If you wish to make intelligent comments, you can mail Soron@nightmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following the original publication of this article in March 2000, "_Marcus_ of Ar" responded with a specious attempt to show that many other writer's works include a passage which parallels a section of Mein Kampf. However, the identification of the self proclaimed "Gorean Philosophy" as a form of Neo-Nazism, is based on the fact that they agree on all of the above issues and share the same foundation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These women were slaughtered for one reason and one reason only, the murderer felt women were inferior.
Killed simply for being female.
Wednesday, Dec 06, 2000
They 'can't have died for nothing'
Families of slain Montreal women hold service
MONTREAL (CP) - The families of 14 women slain in 1989 by a gunman at the Ecole Polytechnique remembered their daughters Wednesday and called for an end to violence against women. Family members laid red roses at a small park that has been dedicated to their daughters.
Therese Daviault, whose daughter Genevieve Bergeron was slain by Marc Lepine, said even though it's painful for the families to mark the anniversary every year, they have to do it. "Our daughters can't have died for nothing," Daviault said.
"We have to do something positive with this."
She said that people need to be told to take action against violence.
Prime Minister Jean Chretien said Canadians have to meet the challenge of ending violence against women.
"In 1989, the brutal reality of violence against women took on a new meaning as we realized that a wonderfully diverse and promising group of young Canadians were killed because they shared one thing in common: their gender," Chretien said in a statement.
A flag-lowering ceremony was held in Halifax at Province House.
"There is no doubt that over the past 11 years there has been a gradual improvement in awareness levels surrounding violence against women," said Jane Purves, provincial minister responsible for the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.
"But more needs to be done. We need to encourage women to not only survive but to thrive. It is up to all of us to do what we can to ensure that women can thrive to change the reality of violence in our society."
In Fredericton, the New Brunswick legislature held a moment of silence to mark the 11th anniversary of the mass murder.
In Alberta, flags on top of the legislature will fly at half-mast form sunrise to sunset Wednesday.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 185
(12/6/00 16:05) Reply
Re: The Direct Results .....
Minister of Justice marks the anniversary of the Polytechnique tragedy
OTTAWA, Dec. 4 /CNW/ - The Honourable Anne McLellan, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, today called on Canadians to mark the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women.
The Minister was speaking to the 8th Annual Fundraising Breakfast to Combat Violence Against Women and Children in Edmonton, Alberta.
The Ecole polytechnique tragedy galvanized a large number of Canadians into taking action against violence against women, and into holding activities to raise awareness and educate the public about the horror of violence against women. I offer my sincere thanks to those of you on the front lines who help victims of violence not only escape the violence but overcome the emotional scars it leaves behind.
The efforts of those committed to eliminating violence against women has led, this week, to the implementation of the Firearms Act. I want to recognise the thousands of Canadians who worked tirelessly to achieve this important goal.
On December 6, Canadians -- from all walks of life -- join together to remember the families of the Ecole polytechnique tragedy. May we work together to ensure that such a tragedy is never repeated.''
The National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women was established by Parliament in 1991 to commemorate the 14 young women whose lives were lost December 6, 1989 at Ecole polytechnique in Montreal. It is a time to remember all women who are victims of violence.
Gor and those weaker.
I have been reading here with interest, and would like if I may to ask Goreans a question. I agree that men and women are different. I agree that people are different.
However Goreans seem to believe that by virtue of that difference, some people should be violently supressed.
I also seem to read that those who are vulnerable would only have care if it was offered by a person with emotional ties.
Is this attitude what the submissive women who seek a 'Master' really want?
I am curious, because I am sure that most people who have found Gor on the Internet have stumbled there, because they are in search of a relationship, and not because they are into right wing politics.
It is very true that you have come under some misconceptions. I should point out that you'll never find the truth in this forum. You'll find a board admin who will beat you with his viewpoints until you are submissive to his own philosophies.
There are many boards and places which can tell you more accurate information about the Gorean ideals. Email me by clicking on my name and finding my email there - and I will give you more information about such forums.
I will not post those links here as it would be a denigration to the lifestyle to do so.
There is nothing of value regarding the Gorean lifestyle here, Minxie. Most of us only post here to alert others that they are in fact part of an ant-farm experiment.
Send me an email - I'll fill you in on the real stuff.
the ADMINISTRATOR
Posts: 258
(1/20/01 23:54) Reply
Obvious Realities
Hello minxie and welcome to the board.
Before you follow the ramblings of the lunatic known as loco I would bet this quote from Marcus_of_ Ar, one of the leaders, elders and founders of the Silk and Steel gorean brotherhood should open your eyes to exactly what they stand for:
5)"Subjugation of the Weak: This principle acts as the inverse to the tenet described above. In order that the race may grow stronger, it is necessary that the weaker and lesser adaptive elements of Gorean society be diminished and controlled"
Zeb, another founder and brother of Silk and Steel said of babies born with genetic differences:
"They should all have their necks snapped at birth".
He's trying to get you to avoid Gor - even as he runs a Gorean forum. He does this by twisting the words and meanings of others out of context to fit his own agenda.
Many people suspect he couldn't live up to them - meaning the Gorean ideals - because if you read his earlier posts he seemed to be so ready to accept them. I imagine somewhere down the line he failed - and now here he is, running a Gorean ant farm, smashing his way through everyone who doesn't agree with him.
Hipocracy, eh?
I would rather you make your own decisions, Minxie. I would be happy to provide you with information, and only that - for I do not recruit nor do I care to. In this manner you'd be able to see what you agree or don't agree with, on your own terms, without big daddy Sha trying to use shock effect to sway your opinions. He's making you unsure for a reason. He's a self-professed agent of morality. Ain't that sweet of him? George Orwell had another name for it - "Big Brother."
You are a big girl. You can choose to see the truth, or not. Don't let anyone tell you what to believe - go out and find it for yourself. :o)
And whether or not you agree with the Gorean tenets, in whole or in part, you'll at least come out of it with a better understanding of yourself and others.
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