Draft, now and the future, equality
Personally I believe the sex barrier on the draft should be torn down since we've already destroyed such a barrier on most other facets within our society...I think women should have these rights, but I also think they should have the same responsibility in helping to defend and support these rights as men do...there are current exemption policies that could easily be adapted for women when facing the draft, concerning children and family the same things that are considered for the men...but I think they should be included in the draft process if they are able to vote and share all proffessions (which I am not against I believe they have more than proved their value in this regard) then I think they can sacrifice their life-blood in the same fashion as a man can, or at least be eligible for such an opportunity...peace
It is a simple biological fact (and one not liable to quick adjustment) that men, in general, are stronger and are thus better suited to most positions in the modern military.
Additionally, there are cultural aspects. I think the America public would react differently to 1,000 female casualties than to an equal number of male deaths in battle (or being captured).
Just because men and women are equal does not mean they must be treated precisely the same. A one legged man has the same rights as I but should be treated differently when it comes to military service.
Not that women cannot and ought not to serve. They should in such capacities as they can just as men ought to. But because men are stronger in most cases they have more openings in the front ranks.
VAdm Robert Seldon, (Jacob)
Chief of Fleet Development
Re: Draft, now and the future, equalityI don't get that.... a woman can be just as strong as a man can, and I think it's only fair that if men are drafted, women should be too. I agree with Hallet that, if we have voting rights, and we have the same equal opportunitues as men do, we should be drafted at wartime to defend our country. I think the Duty comes with the Freedom.
Cmdr. Nara Treniek
Executive Officer
USS Avalon NCC-3002-B
Yes, some women are stronger than some me. But the average man has more upper body strength than the average woman and can carry more of the accoutrements of war. (Additionally, the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman). The average woman is less able, for physical reasons, to make a good infantry soldier than the average man. Could that be different? That's a moot point; the fact is that we, as thinking people, are forced to deal with what is at times.
Are there jobs in the military that place less emphasis on physical strength than others? Of course. Can women fill these roles equally well? Yes. Does that mean women should be drafted? No. The military would rather have someone capable of filling 90% of all the jobs rather than someone who can only fill 50% of the jobs--it gives them more flexibility.
Additionally, there are two other arguments against having women equally integrated into the military as men:
(1) For socio-cultural reasons, the public is likely to react differently to the deaths, injuries, and captures of female soldiers as they do to male soldiers and
(2) Also for socio-cultural reasons, men (and I suspect women) act differently in mixed groups than they do in groups of all guys thus possibly impacting on the combat effectiveness of the unit.
Is working towards such greater integration as is practical, reasonable, and in line with the purpose and goals of the military desirable? Yes, of course. Should we violently lurch towards such a policy regardless of the consequences? Probably not.
If we are simply going to talk about what ought to be and toss what is completely out the window, you are being rather ridiculous, I think. I would posit that a world in which armed force is wholly unneeded is far, far better than a world in which it is needed... but in which women do half the killing too.
This is a good discussion.
VAdm Robert Seldon, (Jacob)
Chief of Fleet Development
Re: Draft, now and the future, equality
Yes, some women are stronger than some men. But the average man has more upper body strength than the average woman and can carry more of the accoutrements of >war. (Additionally, the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman). The average woman is less able, for physical reasons, to make a good infantry soldier than the average man. Could that be different? That's a moot point; the fact is that we, as thinking people, are forced to deal with what is at times. ~I agree, but not all people who go into the army are infantry soldiers...
Are there jobs in the military that place less emphasis on physical strength than others? Of course. Can women fill these roles equally well? Yes. Does that mean women should be drafted? No. The military would rather have someone capable of filling 90% of all the jobs rather than someone who can only fill 50% of the jobs--it gives them more flexibility. ~A good point, and I fully agree with you on it, the military needs all the flexibility it can get, but I think if there were a need for soldiers in that other 50% of jobs, then the military would be justified if they started to draft women... there are some jobs women would be just as good at as men at, and some that men would be better at than women, as you said, but there are also some jobs that women might be better at than men.
Additionally, there are two other arguments against having women equally integrated into the military as men:
(1) For socio-cultural reasons, the public is likely to react differently to the deaths, injuries, and captures of female soldiers as they do to male soldiers and
(2) Also for socio-cultural reasons, men (and I suspect women) act differently in mixed groups than they do in groups of all guys thus possibly impacting on the combat effectiveness of the unit.
~(1) and (2) There are already women in the military, though many fewer than there are men. (a)Most have proven that they are willing to give up their lives, their freedom, and anything else that goes with it, for their country. If a woman is in the military, she has the same duties to her country as a man does to his, and I don't know if the public would react differently to female soldiers being killed, injured, or captured, but it should be equally hard to deal with the deaths or captures of 100 Female soldiers as 100 Male soldiers, if all of them have sworn to protect their country. That's exactly what they're trying to do, and they know when they join the military, or are drafted into it, that they could lose their life, yet they fight for it to defend their country, everyday.
(b) Like I said, there are already women in the military, and if a unit has 80% males and 20% females, I don't see how that unit's job could be too much easier than a unit with 50% males and 50% females. I agree that both women and men act differently around their own gender than they do around the opposite gender, but the way I see it is: if caucasian soldiers could get used to fighting alongside african american soldiers in previous wars, then male soldiers can get used to fighting alongside female soldiers in current conflicts.
Is working towards such greater integration as is practical, reasonable, and in line with the purpose and goals of the military desirable? Yes, of course. Should we violently lurch towards such a policy regardless of the consequences? Probably not. ~I agree that we shouldn't 'violently lurch' towards any policy, but I think the government should be trying to decide whether or not to extend the draft to women.... I know they are arguing about it, much in the same way that we are, probably, but if we might be going to war soon (which I would hate to see, but if it's going to happen, there's no denying the inevitable), I think the government needs to make extending the draft one of their larger arguments.
If we are simply going to talk about what ought to be and toss what is completely out the window, you are being rather ridiculous, I think. I would posit that a world in which armed force is wholly unneeded is far, far better than a world in which it is needed... but in which women do half the killing too. ~I agree, and I'm talking both about what is and what ought to be, but that's always how a discussion get's started, by someone talking about what should happen.... if nobody ever said that something should be changed, it would never be changed, but I think it's better to talk about what is, and how to improve it, and that's my point here...
This is a good discussion. Now this statement, I totally agree on.
Cmdr. Nara Treniek
Executive Officer
USS Avalon NCC-3002-B
You have seemed to imply two slightly different arguments and I want to see which, if either, position you are advocating. Are you arguing that:
(1) No distinction should be made between males and females in drafting for military service whatsoever or
(2) That women should be eligible for the draft but that men can be drafted in greater numbers (or percentages) than women?
If you argue for #2, you are conceding that it is reasonable and acceptable to have different standards for allowing women and men into the military. Then, it is simply a matter of where you draw the line.
If you argue for #1, you will create a military force in which most administrative and non-combat jobs are held by women and nearly all men are forced into combat jobs. This diminishes, not enhances, human resource flexibility.
As a second question, do you view being drafted (or being signed up for the draft) as a right?
Not having thought terribly deeply on this question, I think that one can argue that military service--given a need for soldiers, physical, and mental health, etc--is a right, I do not think that you can argue that being forced to serve is a right. By definition, a right is a freedom from compulsion. How, then, can being eligible to be compelled to something be a right?
I would also like to address the point that you brought up that there are some jobs in the military at which women would generally perform better than men. This is a valid point. But the military is much more concerned with physical strength and health than the business world, government, et cetera and thus will need more men than other organizations (as the average man can fill a greater number of jobs in the military than can the average woman). It is important to remember that the military is fully aware of this point which you’ve raised and I have no doubt takes it into consideration to the full degree allowed by the goals and means of the armed services.
As for the unusually high caliber of the discussion, perhaps it is a result of Maryland's salubrious air and soil upon the two interlocutors.
... Jacob
VAdm Robert Seldon, (Jacob)
Chief of Fleet Development
My argument is on #2, that women should be elegible for the draft, but men should be drafted in greater numbers, and I believe serving is a right. Too many of people have different views on whether drafting would be considered a 'right', so I'm really not sure how to answer this question, but, if one is drafted into the military, they did not make the choice to serve their country. I believe serving your country is a right, as I said, but being forced to do so, on the other hand, depending on how you look at it, could be argued as a violation of one's rights...
But if one is a citizen of a country, and one is drafted at time of war, then perhaps it could also be argued that, as a citizen, you are sworn to protect your country if you have been called upon to do so...
I understand that the military takes physical strength and mentality into a large consideration considering recruiting, and when meeting their goals, which is why I stand with point 2, and that is why I think women should be elegible for the draft...
I understand your point that most men could fill more positions in the military than most women, and that the military also takes this into consideration when recruiting and such, but do you think if there was a need for people in positions in which the military thought women might do a better job, they would extend the draft to women? Would they take that chance if it enhanced the military's defences? The military or the government can keep women excluded from the draft all they want, but if it helped, in the end, if they believed for some reason that it would do us more good than harm, despite the consequences, would they extend the draft, or would they be more afraid of the harmful consequencs than the helpful ones?
I'm not sure anyone except someone in the government or the military could answer that, but what do you think the government would do if put in that postition?
LOL maybe it is, at that..... or maybe we're just the only ones really engulfed in the topic.... some people are just good arguers maybe it comes natural to Marylanders....
~Lindsay
Cmdr. Nara Treniek
Executive Officer
USS Avalon NCC-3002-B
Re: Draft, now and the future, equality
Alright, having served in our nations military, let me add some insight into this. I apologize now if I say something that offends.
First, I am all for women being drafted. If they have "equality", let them share in all of the joyous things that we are equal in, including the draft. It won't happen though, because of the social reasons.
It is true, women can do many things in the military, but they can never be placed into positions such as infantry, armor, or bomber pilot because, well, women do not have the genetic disposition of violence. Women are the gentler of the sexes, and for good reason. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that a few women could and do have the mindset to do what is needed in a combat situation, but overall, because of the more sensetive and emotional dispositions of women, they will more than likely never be placed in thoses positions.
To comment on the idea that the public would react differently with a woman being captured or killed, let us simply look at the situation in Iraq. We have had how many men injured and killed, but one woman is captured a held for a short period, and this country went insane.
I could go on, but I think the point is made. This is a good conversation, and though I do think it is tough to talk about without offending people, it is something that ought to be discussed.
maybe it comes natural to Marylanders....
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